Serious concern about footing! - PICS ADDED!

[recppd]

UPDATE: Picture link added below

I am in the process of adding an 18' x 24' one story addition to my house and the building code requires a 20" W x 10" D footing with a 10" thick wall. Yesterday the foundation guys came and set and poured the footings. After setting their 2" x 12" forms in place, they snapped a grade line and poured to that level. Here's my concern....

The specs call for a 20" W x 10" D footing. The average thickness of the poured footing is about 8". In one corner it is actually about 11", but in the opposite corner (gable end of addition) it is 4.5"!!! They did place rebar throughout the footing, however I'm really worried about putting a 10" wall on a 4.5" thick footing. My main concern is that corner of the foundation will settle and crack under the weight. Am I worrying for nothing, or is this something that should be addressed before they put the forms up? Like I said, the foundation guys said it wasn't an issue. My guess is that they didn't want to dig that corner out to make the proper depth!

Thanks in advance for your feedback!U

[Tom R]

The most 'knowledgeable' replies will come from Rich and mjpliv and Rob and some of the others. I'm more of a 'carpenter', but there's no way I'd settle for that. You got 'charged' for a job with certain 'specifications' and that job, and 'only' that job, is what you agreed to pay for. I can see an 'inch' here or there, but this isn't even close. Their 'opinion' that it isn't an issue is not only 'biased' but 'irrelevant'. The specs are the specs. Didn't the inspector check the footings before they were poured?

[recppd]

Tom R,

To answer your question, "No", the inspector only inspects the "hole". His next inspection is after the foundation is poured, but before backfilling. At that point in the process the stone has already been put in place for the slab floor and around the outside of the footing - so there is no visual indication of how thick the footing actually is...

I'd like to fix the problem now, while it''s fixable!!!

[Tom R]

I must be missing something, the depth of the footing 'hole' should have been the 10" depth, no? Maybe I need to re-read or something. This is why the inspector shows up - - to check the HOLE ! ! 'Footing Inspection = Check footing HOLE ! ! 10" = white sticker, 4 1/2" = red sticker.

[recppd]

Tom R.,

His initial inspection is the excavated hole only. At that point there is no form in place, etc. He basically does a quick 20 sec. inspection to see that it's at the proper depth and then gives the okay to start the foundation work. There is no inspection of the footing or forms prior to pouring, or even before stone or the slab floor is installed. He only does an inspection prior to backfilling.

Also, even though the forms were 2" x 12", the grade level wasn't! As I stated, the average thickness of the footing in the forms is about 8", with one of the outer corners being only 4.5" thick!!! In my opinion, they should have taken a shoven and dug down a bit to get the proper depth. Apparently this isn't common practice though...


Hope this clarifies a little bit.

[Tom R]

Yes, I understand what you're saying, I'm just amazed. Are you sure that's the 'standard', or is the contractor 'buddies' with the inspector? Around here, checking the hole means checking the 'whole' hole. I'd first give the contractor the 'option to fix', if he won't - talk to that inspector again, - if necessary go 'over' his head. This job is not acceptable!

[recppd]

Tom R.,

Nope, I was there when the inspector showed. He was a grumpy old guy with the personality of a dead fish. Typical from what I understand :)

Anyways, he said we were all set to form up and to call him before we backfilled.

On side note, let me ask you this...

If we come to the conclusion that the 4.5" corner of the footing is unacceptable, is there a remedy to fix it other than ripping it up? I'm wondering if they can under dig (after supporting the newly poured footing) and pour a sub-footing to make up the difference in that corner. Is this even possible or advised? Also, what about my average 8" depth vs. the 10" specified thickness? Is this something to be concerned about?

BTW, thanks for your input!

[Rich]

Tom makes the most valid point.. You paid for 10" of concrete down there. Doesn't matter if it will fail or not fail... in your contract it should state something to the effect of "to plans and specifications". That gives you all the power in the world if the plans and specs say 10" - you should get 10".
A typical footing with good soil bearing pressures is around 16" wide by 8" deep.. there was a reason why they require 20x10.. either the home is big enough to require that depth or the soil bearing pressure requires it to be that wide.
And as far as the inspector - ours inspect not only the hole, but the rebar, and perimeter drain. The inspectors are there for you, the homeowner. They inspect for your safety.. and what else is there to inspect at a site that the whole house relies on? The foundation.. they should be ashamed to be called building inspectors.
There are methods to "shore" up under your delinquent footer.. there are micropiles that get pretty expensive.. you can also dig out from underneath the corner (before anymore weight gets placed on the structure) to the correct depth and then have a structural grout mix pumped into the void. It's not cheap either because of the pump.. but much cheaper than reparing a foundation after the home is built :)
Good luck and let us know if we can help with anything else.

[Tom R]

If the contractor absolutely 'refuses' any remedy, in the very least start a 'paper trail' now, with copies to contractor, inspection office, lawyer, whoever. The trouble with a contractor who would do this, is, if this is what he calls good work, what will his 'remedy' look like? I still say you should go talk to a different inspector, or this one's boss. Like Rich says, he's supposed to be protecting you. I'm in Jersey, Rich is in Colorado - - mine and his inspectors have the exact same methods, ask 100 other builders in 100 other areas, you'll get the same answers. I still don't think your area could be any different. Because the inspector is 'grumpy' and not doing his job shouldn't be your loss.

[Rich]

Definately start a paper trail, take pictures. Go and talk with the inspector and if it is a case of he's just grumpy or a friend of the contractor.. remind him/her that their name is on the inspection card. If he/she gets nasty you have every right to talk to their boss and request another inspector.
Also if your engineer specified 10" it doesn't matter what the building inspector says - an engineer will always overrule an inspector.

[senor_mouse]

The footing and stem wall you describe seems like overkill for a one-story structure. I wouldn't worry about the 4.5" area - it may be just at the edge where some dirt sluffed in. If the footing was poured on 'reasonably' undisturbed ground WITH two #4 horizontal bars (minimum) you should be OK.
Exceptions:
1.A pre-construction soils report necessitated an engineered footing design.
2.Part or all of the foundation needs to function as a retaining wall.

[Tom R]

A 10" footing was 'specified' - - a 10" footing was paid for - - If I owed you $1000.00, would $450.00 be close enough? Can you send him your 'approval' and 'guarantee' in writing?

[recppd]

Thanks for the replies!

Tom R.,

I can see where you're coming from, but my main concern is structural integrity. The cost aspect is something that can always be adjusted. So far they only have 1/2 payment, with the other have after full completion.

Rich,

I have taken pictures, and made phone calls to my contractor. But because the work was done late Friday afternoon, he has yet to see the footing and has not returned my messages. He's tough to get a hold of on the weekends. I'm really curious to see his reaction to the whole thing. In the least, if he agrees with the concrete guys, I want something in writing stating the footing will be structurally sound "as is". Even if they do that, I still feel a little uneasy with such a low corner. On a side note, my main house, a 43' x 26' full basement ranch with 10" wall, has NO footing at all. It was built in 1958 and apparently they didn't pour footings back then. It has one crack in the front of the house, but it's very minor.

I'll let you guys know how everything turns out.

[Tom R]

Do let us know - - good luck.

[RobBase]

So far everyone has had good replies to your situation, recppd. Especially getting on the inspectors ass and making a paper trail, documentation and photos.

As a side note, did you see the grade nails for the top of footing elevation before they poured and was it indeed 4.5" above the bottom of footing? Like senor mouse said, it is possible for dirt to fall in but just at the edge where it'svisible after stripping. This is itself sloppy attention to details on the part of the concrete guys, but it does happen and if most of the footing is "good", I wouldn't worry about it. One thing you can do to check is go out there with a piece of rebar or a long thin digging tool and start digging away at the dirt under the footing where it's 4.5" thick. If you hit dirt more than 2-3" under the footing, then start to worry a little. Keep digging/tunneling until you hit concrete if at all. If the entire width of the footing is indeed 4.5" thick, start taking pictures, call the contractor and ask him what he is going to do about it.

As far as fixing the out of spec footing areas, it can be done. The best way involves cutting out the bad areas with a saw and jackhammer/hoe ram, cutting a keyway into the original footings where it was cut, then epoxy doweling new rebar into the original footing, digging the bad spot down to grade, then repouring. Not fun or easy, but for you it's better to MAKE them fix it now rather than later as fixing it later is like putting a bandaid on a broken arm.

BTW, I would only be satisfied with such a thin footing if it rested on bedrock or ledge.

[recppd]

Rob,

"Yes", I saw the nails were only that deep but was assured that it was "perfectly normal" and "it's nothing to worry about". Below is a link to some pics showing the footing. Keep in mind that the forms are approx. 11" high.

http://community.webshots.com/user/ppd4248

I still haven't heard from my GC.

[Rich]

After seeing that Footing 3 image.. well I won't start ranting too much. I am pretty anal about all facets of a project. And if workers for me did that, I'd fire every one of them on the spot.
Do I not see any form stakes on the corner? Or did they already remove them? I would start checking square on the footing also.. starting with the centerline of the rebar versus final location of the stemwall.
Personally, I would make them tear it out and put the forms down so the top of them are at elevation instead of somewhere in the middle.

[recppd]

Rich,

What you see, is what I got! Nothing has been removed. Should I contact the building inspector and let him deny the footing? I I just went back outside and took measurements from the top of the form to the top of the concrete. I was wrong. The average thickness is more like 6-7", with the exception of the far left corner.

So you think I should make a stink?

[Rich]

Structurally you should probably be ok.. remember I said probably. I have no way of telling if it will hold up or not. If there was 10" of concrete I could say with a pretty good degree of certainty that it'll be ok - as that's what the engineer has put on his plans.
I would maybe talk to the inspector and either show him the pictures or have him come out to look at it. Then talk to your contractor, if you can get a hold of him, and see what their remedy is going to be. Personally and professionally I think there should be 10" of concrete there... it was bought and probably will be paid for... and it's specified on the plans.

[Tom R]

Wow! , I guess I haven't been 'around' enough. I've never laid footings anywhere other than to the top of the forms. I dig the trench to the bottom of the proposed footing, then 'set' the tops of the forms to the proposed top of the footing, all with transit and story pole. When the mix arrives, I can do it 'blindfolded' and it will still be perfect. Maybe self-taught isn't such a bad thing.

[Rich]

HAHA.. I'm right with you Tom.. I would think it would be a lot harder doing it the way it was done in the photos.

[RobBase]

Looked at the photos also......

Looks like the concrete sub only has one last rabbit to pull out of his hat. Sometimes we also set the forms and let them run wild in reference to grade. Then we'll set grade nails by level or laser level and pour to the nails. BUT......this is ok only as long as the excavation/subgrade is ALSO dug down to the correct grade according to the level/laser. You said you measured down from his grade nails to the dirt and he did not have 10" min.??? If so, the concrete sub, not you, has a problem.

I'm not a legal eagle here, but I'd call your general contractor and tell him you will not allow any further work to continue and you will not pay him anything until the footings are redone according to the plans. I don't know what good the building inspector will do but perhaps calling his boss in the county inspection dept. would make something happen.

Like Rich and Tom said, in all likelihood your footings would probably be ok, (the ground looks like it has lots of rock) but you didn't pay for something that might be ok, you are paying for your project to be built according to the plans. Don't give in on that point now or in the future.

Good luck.....keep us posted.

[recppd]

UPDATE:

I reached the GC this afternoon. We have a meeting tomorrow morning at 0800 hrs. to view and discuss the footings. I'll let you know the outcome.

P.S. - If it's any indication, he didn't sound happy on the phone!

[mjpliv]

Strip footings are designed to support standard weights on specific soil types or bearing capacities. All of these calculations are are based on the square area of the bearing surface (footings). The foundation walls (stem walls) apply the building loads to the center of the footings and they rely on the structural integrity of the footings to redistribute these loads over the larger bearing surface of the footings. A 10" footing has the structural integrity to do this without cracking along its length. A 4-1/2" footing does not, plain and simple. Nor does a 5", or 6" or 7".

Unless these footings are bearing (directly) on stable bedrock then any reasonable person would expect them to be removed and re-poured to thier correct depth. If this means the General contractor is on the hook for re-excavating to the correct level - then tough tit! Maybe next time he will sub the job out to an excavator that actually knows what they are doing.

[recppd]

Well, I met with my GC this morning and the verdict is....

REPOUR

Actually his exact words were "They're gonna &$(#@*% rip it up and do it right or they're not getting paid." He also said he was going to inspect the forms prior to pouring to guarantee it's done right this time. Works for me!

Thanks for all your feedback!

[Rich]

Excellent.. one less worry.

[Tom R]

Great news, now what's his address so we know where to mail the inspector's paycheck!

[icthrooyou]

Hey!! Great news, recppd!! Congratulations!!

[RobBase]

Excellent!

Now tell the concrete sub to go to Home Depot and buy a laser.