240 gallon fish tank support

[SH7mi]

I would like to set up my tank in my den. The floor construction is 2x12 16"oc bearing at 15'. The tank will be set up against the middle bearing wall which is on a steel I-beam. I figure live load to be close to 3000 lbs. Will the floor support the weight ?

[SH7mi]

The tank dimensions are 8' long x 2' deep x 2' high

[Don_P]

You've crossed into engineer territory. A point load on a steel beam of unknown size or span holding up a bearing wall of unknown load.

[concretemasonry]

That size tank will certainly need some additional support. That is not for just strength, but for the deflection and what it does to adjacent areas.

Even my puny 55 gallon tank caused some problems when placed adjacent to a loadbearing wall and on the bearing ends of a span below. Wood is an elastic member and deflects and distorts.

I moved my tank and 3 piranhas to concrete floor to keep everyone, including the fish happy. They were so happy the 3 piranhas become only 2 piranhas and grew well for a few years.

Dick

[SH7mi]

I did not want to go there, I trust experience over a college degree every time.
I was hoping someone on this site had done this or similar project. What about a water bed kingsize, I dont think they beef up the floor for those but I dont know.
I beam is 8" 32' long supporting the first floor bearing wall which supports the second floor. The beam has three lolly columns supporting it.

[RTF]

Let me see if I can help, you need to hire a Structural Engineer. You are adding a load in excess of 3000 lbs. Your load is a point load and is not spread out over a large area. Our experience says to consult the person with the college degree.

[SH7mi]

Thanks guys, I have had nothing but bad experiences with architects and engineers in my 29 years as a carpenter. I do not trust them. I will keep looking for experience and hands on applicable to my scenario.

Thanks again.

[Don_P]

Well, there are 13 common weights of 8" wide flange beam in 2 common strengths... which of the 26 choices is it, or is it something else?

What is the tributary width the beam is supporting, is the roof supported also and if so what is the design snow load?

Are there any other point loads from framing or furnishings?

Are the lally columns evenly spaced at 8' centers?

Species and grade of the joists? (these are going to be pushing it I suspect) #2 spf- 17'10" max before the tank.

I had a long post but the computer ate it, you see my point, you don't know what you don't know at this point. How will you know when someone gives you bogus advice on the internet? "I did this and my house hasn't collapsed"... yet?

On the job I'm on now an engineer has pulled my fat out of the fire twice so far, not saying I don't appreciate your point since what got me cooking was a combination of me, an archie and another engineer, like anything there are good and bad. Find a good one and keep him around if you're in the trade. Mine popped in to visit, looked around and invited me over to dinner to explain where I was in trouble, all while we were drinking his beer :)

[SH7mi]

Why do you think I will not consult an engineer or architect, because of bogus advice ! If I can't get sound information from a carpenter, builder, aquarium company, or waterbed company (those who have actually gotten blisters and splinters on their hands) I simply won't set the tank on that floor.

[concretemasonry]

SH7mi -

It is not necessarily a question of the floor strength since deflection can be a problem even if the strength to good enough,

A guy with splinters and blisters does not necessarily know anything about the aquarium and all situations are different. A waterbed is a totally different animal because the load is applied over a larger area. An aquarium company knows nothing about your house or the local in the house relative to the supporting beams and joists.

If an 8' long tank is placed with legs/supports on the wrong locations it could very easily pop a seam in the middle of the night, or just not end up being level which would be very noticeable if the top water level is seen.

You are doing something similar to putting a VW on the floor of your house.

[Don_P]

Why do you think I will not consult an engineer or architect, because of bogus advice ! If I can't get sound information from a carpenter, builder, aquarium company, or waterbed company (those who have actually gotten blisters and splinters on their hands) I simply won't set the tank on that floor.

You have gotten sound advice from carpenters and engineers here. As for myself I pulled a few splinters this week and lifted a 21' heavy timber truss 26' in the air by my little old self on Monday. Between 2 of us we set 5 of em in the past week and a half, the last one during an earthquake. The sound advice may not be what you wanted to hear but it is no less sound. The advice I could give you based on the lack of information you have given me would be nothing short of bogus... and I can do this from experience or I can run the engineering calcs... but not based on insufficient information. I continue to learn because just like you, I've been burned. I'll use architects and engineers, their expertise surpasses mine, but I can keep up and pull their fat out of the fire on occassion. Rather than being adversarial they are a part of my team.

I've ridden 2 floors to the ground, it ain't as much fun as it sounds, you are lucky if you walk away just barked up. I was lucky, nothing else collapsed. Will you have a catastrophic failure? I seriously doubt it unless a bogus carpenter built the place, which I doubt since a carpenter owns it. Will it deflect too much, now or over time, or are you getting into the safety margins of the materials? I suspect you will be, not many people plan on a 3000 lb additional load on a floor when designing it.

Those kingsized waterbeds on small pedestals were an example of overload that we worked in an engineering class.

My advice would be that if you are unwilling to perform due diligence I would not put the tank on the floor. Best of luck in whatever you decide.

[SH7mi]

The tank will be supported by 6 joists as I previously posted, not four individual posts that might set between the joists.
Apart from my own experiences with architects and engineers, check out Engineering Disasters on TLC or History Channel. The Tropicana in Atlantic City failed because of an 'engineer' ( I was working for a company that had men in there when it collapsed); Galloping Girdy bridge failed due to an 'engineer'; The hotel catwalk that collapsed in the 1980s killing some people also 'engineer' at fault;..... and the examples go on. 'Engineer' is not stepping foot in my house,(which I did build), so you gentlemen see my concern.
When in doubt... don't. So I won't set it up if I do not get solid info from builders, carpenters etc. you guys included.
Thanks again,
Kevin

[RTF]

The idea that you have ever built anything without the help of an Engineer is absurd. The house " you built " was engineered years ago, through the hard work of many engineers that helped design modern construction methods. If you used concrete, lumber or steel while constructing your house, you used material that has been tested and approved by engineers.
You're not the only one that has witnessed structure failure on jobsites, I've lost friends in a couple of unnecessary accidents. That's the problem with life, people make mistakes. The percentage of structure failures in relation to stable structures is minimal. Keep in mind this is due to Engineers improving on what went wrong in the past and providing standards to build by, that's why there is a building code. Construction is not an exact science, it is constantly evolving.
Now you have gotten sound advice from professionals that have spent years in this industry and you've treated it like dirty laundry. You can't stand engineers and architects, but you have been in the business for 29 years. It makes no sense that after all these years you haven't come across one engineer worth a shit, give me a break. You may not like them but without them you wouldn't have a job. Get your head out of your ass and get an engineer to give their professional opinion, before you make a tragic mistake.

[MtnDon]

Engineering disasters are not always engineering disasters. There are many other fingers in the pie and problems can be caused by any of them, contractors, inspectors, etc.

The failures should be better named for what they are, structural failure disasters. Building failures always make big news. We never, or seldom, hear of the triumphs because that doesn't sell news. Sure, there have been failures traced back to a faulty design. However, there are many more successes.

You could ask that question in many places on the internet. Most of them will have any number of self styled experts serving up their opinions, not based on science, but probably just what they have seen done. Just because something has been done and hasn’t failed, doesn’t mean it is good design.

[Don_P]

Let's keep it calm guys. Don't make it personal, don't take it personal.

One of those examples, the catwalk collapse, was actually caused by the contractor modifying the engineer's detail. He chose to connect the catwalk in a way that looked right to him and the fabricator but failed to take into account all the forces present. We learned about wind harmonics in bridges from the Tacoma Narrows bridge and that is now taught. Engineers learn from and build on what they learn from mistakes. It is nothing but experience quantified so that success is repeatable or failure is avoided. The general public, God bless 'em, make the same stupid mistakes over and over again.

I can point to a couple of earthquakes that show the positive side of engineering. In Haiti the design and construction was done by less skilled people, little or no engineering with no oversight. Nearly everything in the zone collapsed ~100,000 buildings and around 230,000 lives lost. By comparison the 1989 Loma Prieta earthquake near San Francisco (the World Series earthquake) was as big, 63 lives lost. The Chilean quake was far stronger than Haiti and they survived with minimal losses, tough codes requiring engineering and strict enforcement.

For my own curiousity I checked the loads on the joists, combinations of uniform and point loads are not where I shine. An engineer would consider this child's play. I came up in the neighborhood of 2500 ft lbs max bending moment per joist which was about 2/3 of capacity, I plugged in average wood, whatever that is, you didn't tell me species and grade. Deflection of around 1/2" for my "average wood" and shear acceptable. We know nothing about other loads, we know nothing about the steel beam. So the question in my mind is... would you rather take the gyrations of a carpenter who is struggling hard with the math and who is loudly stating that he doesn't understand all the conditions over someone who actually passed math class on the first try, who could actually look at all the conditions that you cannot describe, and who could do this standing on his head? I use my knowledge to check their work for gross errors on something like this. So think about this, it isn't cutting edge design, it's mundane for them, an everyday problem. I'd have someone competent come out and look at the actual conditions and do it right.

[Bioload]

Sorry to highjack SH7mi...but

I’m currently in the planning stages of a renovation of my home that will include a finished basement and main floor 270gal aquarium (6’,3’,2’). I’ve been informed that the standard construction of the residential floor will be an issue for the weight that will be applied.

There have been recommendations of either replacing, laminating, or supplementing the existing floor with either LVL or LVL / flitch plate if LVL itself would not be sufficient.

I’ve estimated the load to be approx 3000lbs, but have been told to engineer to 5000lbs. I would like to avoid the use of support columns in the basement as I plan on utilizing the open space.

Here are sone of the drawings I've done of the proposed "idea" laninating exiting joists with LVL

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu78/reefkeeping/framing_003.jpg

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu78/reefkeeping/framing_008.jpg

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu78/reefkeeping/framing_007.jpg

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu78/reefkeeping/framing_001.jpg

[Bioload]

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu78/reefkeeping/framing_006.jpg

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu78/reefkeeping/framing_005.jpg

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu78/reefkeeping/framing_004.jpg

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu78/reefkeeping/framing_002.jpg

I've been searching for information, calculations, and advice on what to do given my conditions, and after weeks of searching I'm comming to the conclusion........I may need to hire a Structural Engineer.

My quest for an answer began mainly to due my budget constraint (I don't even know how much an engineer would cost), but I don't think I'll be able to get plans approved on the web, however, I have gained alot of knowledge that I can discuss with an engineer who can approve.

Hope you find your answer......still looking for mine

[Don_P]

This may be of some help with prelim design. Remember if all things are equal...IF, then the center joist is supporting half the load and the side ones are supporting 1/4 of the load. I know nothing about allowable deflection under these.
http://www.ilevel.com/services/s_forte.aspx

[Bioload]

This may be of some help with prelim design. Remember if all things are equal...IF, then the center joist is supporting half the load and the side ones are supporting 1/4 of the load. I know nothing about allowable deflection under these.
http://www.ilevel.com/services/s_forte.aspx

Thanks Don!....let's give this a shot

Just to walk through the software I’ve entered the L/800 into the live load field and proportionally increased the total load field from the original L/240 to the L/400. This information is populated in the “Member” tab.

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu78/reefkeeping/floor_calc_003.jpg

Spans and Supports:

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu78/reefkeeping/floor_calc_004.jpg

Not knowing what an “Out to Out” or “Custom Dimensions Locations” is, I selected a clear span of 12’. Under “Bearing Length” I’ve entered as 5.5” on each side supported on “Bottom” by a SPF stud wall.

There are left and right overhang lengths of 3”, however, there is 2” of bearing on the foundation wall as well. Not sure if I should enter this as a total bearing with no overhang length, but will leave as is for now.

I’ve added under the accessory “Blocking”, however, there is also a 1.25” rim board (on site) that the software will not let me select when there is an overhang value entered.

“Connectors” are grayed out.

[Bioload]

Loads:

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu78/reefkeeping/floor_calc_005.jpg

Occupancy Type: Not selectable with default value of “Residential – Living Areas (40LL)”. I’m okay with the residential part but not to sure how or if the 40LL will effect the calculations.

Type: Options are Point (lb), Point (PLF), Uniform (PLF), Uniform (PSF), Tapered (PLF), and Tapered (PSF). I’ll enter Uniform (PSF).

Full Length: Unchecked

Location: 10” to 6’

[Bioload]

Holes:

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu78/reefkeeping/floor_calc_006.jpg

None were added as I do not planning on drilling through any of the members. I would like to make any plumbing or electrical runs adjacent to an existing HVAC duct enclosed in a bulkhead.

Location Analysis:

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu78/reefkeeping/floor_calc_007.jpg

Again, I’m not sure what the function of this tab is. The drawing above is an example of two location fields at 2’ and 3’, however, I will omit in this calculation.

[Bioload]

Floor Performance:

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu78/reefkeeping/floor_calc_008.jpg

User Specified TJ-Pro™ Rating: “Everyone has their own opinion of how a floor should feel when walked on. The TJ-Pro™ Rating system is designed to identify the products and other components that will contribute to your floor design. The TJ-Pro™ Rating system can evaluate factors that contribute to floor performance — materials, installation methods, even customer expectations — and develop relative performance ratings. Varying the components and developing a relative performance rating gives you options for enhancing the floor's performance. You can also compare the cost efficiency of various flooring options.”

Any TJ-Pro™ Rating: Checked to not use TJ-Pro™ Rating as a design parameter. “This value is calculated by Forte™ software but will not be used to pass or fail a product.”

Decking Type: Specify the type of decking/sheathing material to use:
19/32" Structurwood Edge® (20" Span Rating)
23/32" Structurwood Edge® (24" Span Rating)
19/32" Structurwood Edge Gold® (20" Span Rating)
23/32" Structurwood Edge Gold® (24" Span Rating)
7/8" Structurwood Edge Gold® (32" Span Rating)
1 1/8" Structurwood Edge Gold® (48" Span Rating)
19/32" Panels (20" Span Rating)
23/32" Panels (24" Span Rating)

I selected what I guess to be the worst case scenario of the calculator; 19/32" Panels (20" Span Rating).

Remaining field have been left unchecked except for blocking between the floor joists. No strapping or ceiling below the floor at the moment.

Products:

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu78/reefkeeping/floor_calc_009.jpg

This one seems straight forward

[Bioload]

Solution:

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu78/reefkeeping/floor_calc_010.jpg

I think I did something wrong? Going back and changing my products to include various depths

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu78/reefkeeping/floor_calc_011.jpg

There were multiple solutions available. Some that failed and others that passed.

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu78/reefkeeping/floor_calc_012.jpg

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu78/reefkeeping/floor_calc_013.jpg

Based on the software I can use 2(9 1/4" x 1 3/4") with 12" OC ???

[Don_P]

I wouldn't enter a deflection limit in the members tab, it will give a readout of deflection in the output, that is what is important. Deflection will control this application. Neither of you have responded to questions about allowable deflection of the floor under these tanks. There is the main problem.

under the loads tab you should have 2 loads, the uniform residential load in the non tank area and a second load, the tank itself. You have only entered the tank, there should be 2 load boxes and a load drawn over the entire area, of differing magnitude. Notice you have zero load on the rest of the joist. By entering a uniform load you are stating that the tank is bearing on the floor uniformly along its' entire bottom.

Location analysis gives a return under the report tab for shear, moment and deflection at locations you specify. The solutions tab gives the location and magnitude of maximum for each of those criteria.

The software does not allow a triple joist... if you use the flush girder tab and a 16" trib width it does allow a triple. The sandwich in your drawing is not a triple lvl.

Do remember an engineering program doesn't make one an engineer.

[Bioload]

I wouldn't enter a deflection limit in the members tab, it will give a readout of deflection in the output, that is what is important. Deflection will control this application. Neither of you have responded to questions about allowable deflection of the floor under these tanks. There is the main problem.

under the loads tab you should have 2 loads, the uniform residential load in the non tank area and a second load, the tank itself. You have only entered the tank, there should be 2 load boxes and a load drawn over the entire area, of differing magnitude. Notice you have zero load on the rest of the joist. By entering a uniform load you are stating that the tank is bearing on the floor uniformly along its' entire bottom.

Location analysis gives a return under the report tab for shear, moment and deflection at locations you specify. The solutions tab gives the location and magnitude of maximum for each of those criteria.

The software does not allow a triple joist... if you use the flush girder tab and a 16" trib width it does allow a triple. The sandwich in your drawing is not a triple lvl.

Do remember an engineering program doesn't make one an engineer.

Wasn't able to get a maximum allowable deflection from the tank manufacturer yet. They recommend adding a leveler to the end of the stand to compensate for the deflection.

Below is an "Engineered" recommendation that I received today. Which has put some of my OCD concerns at ease for the time being. Still a ways out before I start though, but doing what I can in terms of research and questions up front.

Still unclear about the allowable deflection under a tank this large. Would a 1/8" deflection @ 6' cause any stress on the vertical glass panes is still to be answered?....normally the rigid foam under the stand and tank has been used to "even out any small irregularities"?

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu78/reefkeeping/2011-09-13_221244.jpg

[Don_P]

Thanks for updating. A leveler as I'm reading it would change the load from uniform to point out on the end being levelled... increasing stress and deflection, run it as a point load out there and it should show up in the calcs.