Steel support posts embedded in framed walls...

[icthrooyou]

Hey folks!

I have a question or two regarding how to incorporate some steel support posts (HSS 4x4x1/4) into framed walls. This may be fairly common to some, but not me. This is the first house I've ever built.

Here is a view of the right side elevation of my house. You'll notice there is a framed knee wall with two windows at the very bottom as part of the "daylight basement". The posts are located just on the inside edges of the window rough-outs within the wall framing and continue on up into the roof.
http://www.creations4christ.com/wolfecreek/rightelev1.gif

Here is the plan section that shows where the posts are located on the concrete stem walls of the basement...
http://www.creations4christ.com/wolfecreek/steelpostbasement.gif

And here is where it shows that these posts continue all the way to the roof. They carry a huge load from the roof all the way to the foundation.
http://www.creations4christ.com/wolfecreek/steelpostroof.gif

My plan drawings, which are otherwise very detailed, do not show any sections on how to incorporate the posts into the framing. So, I'm wondering several things about how to "engineer" this...

1. Would it be advisable to have these posts fabricated in sections to make it easier to install them as we go UP in the construction? I can't see mounting two posts (and there are two more just like them on the LEFT side as well) in full length (probably 20 feet tall or so) and then building the house up around them. By having the steel supplier cut them into sections, they could also weld plates on each end with holes lined up so they could just be bolted together as we reach the next level during framing. I would also have the connections occur somewhere within the middle of the wall to avoid the union of the 1st and 2nd floors. How does all this sound so far?

2. How should they be mounted to the (8" concrete) foundation? Should they rest on the sill plate? Or should they bolt directly into the concrete and the sill plate cut to fit around their bases? My guess is that they should have a bearing plate bolted with expansion bolts into the concrete, but I wasn't sure how to work the sill plate around them...

Any shared wisdom on these issues would be much appreciated!

[Cole]

The posts should be bolted to the concrete with expansion bolts like you have stated, and simply cut the plate around them.

[icthrooyou]

Thanks Cole!

Hee hee! If only my explanation could have been as concise as your answer! :lol:

Oh, what about cutting the posts into sections to deal with the height?

Thanks!

[Cole]

Oh, what about cutting the posts into sections to deal with the height?




Im not really sure about cutting them into sections, but i understand ur feelings about not wanting to put them all at one time.

[Cole]

I wish we had a engineer on the board for questions like urs.

[icthrooyou]

Hey thanks again!

I think I'll be ok with sectioning the columns. My steel supplier has a SE on staff and he didn't seem to think it was an issue. He wasn't as helpful on how to deal with working them into the framing. My main questions were about the connections at the foundation and how to deal with the sill plate, which you've answered nicely. Thanks for being so "johnny on the spot"! :)

Have a great day!

[Cole]

I just didnt want to give you some bad info!!! Have a great day!!!

[Rich]

I'll see if I can get some pictures of what we did tomorrow. We've got steel posts all over the place that we had to frame up to.

[mjpliv]

I have done them both ways- continuous and joined. Both work fine. The hard part is getting all the holes to line up.

[Rich]

Here's a couple images of what we've done..

[Cole]

Is that plywood i see :lol: :lol:

[Rich]

Now now.. haha
but yes 3/4" a/c on the walls and 1-1/8" T&G on the floors. The stuff on the walls looks bad because we had used it for some cover on another project.

[mjpliv]

Do I see PSL or LSL studs and plates?

By the way, good example of web stiffeners at the joist hanger locations (for the newbees).

[Rich]

Timberstrand LSL.

[icthrooyou]

Excellent photos Rich! I appreciate you taking the time!

It helps me very much (and others I hope) to see how you did your connections.

However, in thinking all this through for my situation, I am still having some reservations about how to work the two posts on my Right Elevation into the framing, specifically how to handle passing through the window lintels. I'll post the Right Elevation pic here again for easy reference:
http://www.creations4christ.com/wolfecreek/rightelev1.gif

My dilemma is this: My original assumption was that the two steel posts would carry load continuously from the roof down to their bolted attachment in the foundation wall, maintaining a "steel to steel" connection the entire way (whether fabricated as two big, long posts or by breaking both into sections and bolting/welding together to make handling easier).

However, in looking at the window lintels on the right elevation, it would seem to me that the posts would have to terminate and support the lintel that spans the top of the large window grouping on the first floor, thus breaking the "steel to steel" connection. Thanks to Rich's excellent pics, I can now see how you handle the posts embedded within the regular wall framing, but could/would/should you pass a 4"x4"x1/4" post through a quadrupled out 2"x8" lintel?? I suspect not. Especially since this lintel supports the W8X18 floor beam in the second floor system...PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong?

So then, short of running them through the 2"x8" lintel (which I really don't see how to do at this point), couldn't I just begin the next section of steel posts on TOP of the 1st floor window lintel, secure them with bearing plates to spread out the load and then run them on up to support the final W12X19 steel lintel spanning the window near the top of the roof? In essence, losing my "steel to steel" connection. I'm thinking that a lintel of 4-2"x8"s would be sufficient to transfer load from the upper sections of steel posts down to the lower sections of steel posts connected to the foundation. I'll be asking the designers of the plans tomorrow, but I was hoping to hear what you guys think...

One last nit-picky thing on the 1st floor drawing... Does it look to you guys like there's not a whole lot of room for framing between the windows if you have 4"x4" steel running through there?? I'm wondering where I'll be able to put studs and window frames...

Thanks!!

Here are clips of my plan sections of the different floors.

Basement:
http://www.creations4christ.com/wolfecreek/steelpostbasement.gif

1st Floor:
http://www.creations4christ.com/wolfecreek/steelpost1stfloor.gif

2nd Floor:
http://www.creations4christ.com/wolfecreek/steelpost2ndfloor.gif

Roof:
http://www.creations4christ.com/wolfecreek/steelpostroof.gif

Thanks everybody!!

[mjpliv]

Talk to your building supply dealer about the possiblility of replacing all those steel columns with 5.25"x5.25" PSL (Parallell Strand Lumber). It makes things a lot easier when you can spike everything in place.

[icthrooyou]

Sounds good except for the 5.25" width. I guess I could move the windows over a couple of inches on either side to accommodate...

I'll check into it. Thanks!

[icthrooyou]

Ok, I spoke with the plan designers this morning. They blew me off at first, insisting that I contact "my engineer" to have him design the connections. I said "Ok, fine, but that still doesn't change the fact that you can't (as far as I can see) run a 4x4 steel post THROUGH the center of a 6" wide lintel (as specified in THEIR drawings!) and still expect that lintel to support a W8X18 steel beam holding up the floor!" So, their technician suggested that I replace the wooden lintel with a W8X18 to make the connections to the post continuously steel.....Why didn't he just say that in the first place?? Oh well. Problem solved. :)

Thanks for all the help folks!