Waterproofing Products/Solutions Comparison

[icthrooyou]

Hey folks!

I'm finding that approaching the waterproofing solution is getting to be a bit involved. We are building in "clayey" (just as awkward as trying to pronounce "rural") soils with a lot of drainage from the hillside behind our site. After searching the internet for different products (many suggested in this forum), I've located a product that seems to be very cost effective and I wanted to share the info with everyone and get some feedback.

In another thread, Rich had suggested the Procor waterproofing membrane used in conjunction with the Mirafi drainboard extending under my perimeter drain tile. I think this would be an excellent "combo" of products. However, I find that Procor is difficult for me to obtain, not as user-friendly as other similar products, and is fairly costly. I've got about 2000 SF of foundation to cover and the price I've been quoted for Procor is $1424 for a 75 gallon kit that covers 975 SF. For my application, I would need two of those and with tax and freight it would run me $3000. Yikes! (God help me if two kits didn't cover it all!) :shock:

I located a product from Degussa Building Systems (formerly Chemrex) called Sonneborn HLM 5000. This product is advertised as a "one component, moisture-curing, bitumen-modified polyurethane elastomeric waterproofing membrane." (deep inhale) It comes complete (no mixing) in 5 gallon buckets and there are four versions: self-leveling horizontal squeege application, spray-on, trowel-on, or roll-on. A five gallon bucket covers 120-150 SF and is priced locally to me at $60/bucket (although one distributor quoted me $124/bucket??). I'll need about 18 buckets at a cost of $1080 compared with the Procor at $3000.

Has anyone ever used HLM 5000?? I couldn't find any references on a forum search... I know you usually get what you pay for, but as of yet I can't discern any great advantage of using Procor in favor of HLM 5000. Here's a link to the spec sheet:
http://www.chemrex.com/documents/hlm_tdg.PDF

I was able to locate the Mirafi drain board at a local cost of $104/roll (4'x50') and I plan to use the HLM 5000 coating, apply 2" rigid insulation next, and finally cover that with the Mirafi drain board. The total cost of the HLM 5000 plus the drain board would still be about $800 less than the Procor alone.

If anyone has any other products or combinations of products that have proven effective (both functionally and/or cost-wise), please feel free to chime in!

Thanks!!

PS - Wondering if there is a specific place in the forum where we could post good product references or solutions to common problems? I didn't see one in the main directory of forums, so maybe it could be a fresh addition? I'm also thinking that to avoid spamming (especially "hit-and-run" spammers) in a forum like that, maybe Rich could set the forum to only allow posting from members who've had "X" number of posts or something like that? Just a thought!

[Rich]

I think any rubber or flexible type product with a drain board is better than any dampproofing. So I think your product would be just fine.
I'll think about something like a product directory.

[msa123]

I'm about to tackle a similar situation. A local construction material supplier carries the HLM 5000 product (at $67/bucket). They also carry a product called Bituthene 4000 that consists of rolls of "rubberized" sheets that are adhered to the wall (bucket of adhesive provided in "kit") in an overlapping fashion. Cost of kit that covers 200SF is $130. I did talk to an individual that installed the Bituthene recently and is very satisfied with the application and apparent results.

Does anyone else have any experience with this Bituthene 4000 product???

[Rich]

I don't particularly like sheet goods unless it's bentonite - which expands and seals when in contact with water. There always seems to be something missed - a corner here or lap there.
If you're really anal and doing it yourself - it'll probably be just fine. It's when you're not watching that it doesn't get done right :)

[icthrooyou]

I just picked up 6 rolls of Miradrain G100N drain board. I'm also getting the HLM 5000 this Monday.

By the way Rich, how do you guys install your MiraDrain? Do you install it in columns, overlapping the sides? Or do you install it horizontally in rows shingle-style, starting up from the footer, lapping the top piece over the one below it? How do you seal the top to prevent soil infiltration? I was thinking of getting some of the Mirafi fabric and tucking it behind the uppermost edge and securing it down the front about 12 inches or so, perhaps using some of the HLM 5000 to bond it along the top and behind the board to the concrete...? The guy where I bought it said he had always seen them leave it exposed above grade... I didn't like that idea.

Also, while doing some further study of the issues, I came across a product called RadonSeal. It's a concrete sealer. There are several versions out there on the market, one of the other ones is Endur-O-Seal.

I've decided to use the RadonSeal to treat the basement walls inside and out, and the floor slab. The inside treatement will help block Radon transfer and resist the concrete's capillary action/water wicking. The outside treatment will also help prevent wicking and radon transfer, but will also inhibit the alkali's in the concrete from damaging the HLM 5000 waterproof coating over time.

So, my plan on the outside is this: 1. Apply RadonSeal, apply HLM 5000, apply 2" rigid insulation, finally apply MiraDrain G-Series and backfill!

On the inside, I have decided against using additional rigid insulation. My reasoning is that I would rather have some air space right against the concrete so that any moisture that does manage to come through my outer gauntlet can actually escape and evaporate into the air instead of collecting behind the insulation creating mold/mildew. Any flaws in that reasoning?

There are so many things you have to be concerned about and it's hard to separate truth from marketing hype, but I think this combination of products will work nicely together. I'll let you know how its working in 10 years! :D

[Rich]

Is what we've done is run it horizontally as we backfilled - being as on this current project we have 16' walls so it was easier to install as we backfilled. At the top we've run a rubber membrane self-adhesive to the concrete and then overlapping the drain board.
I think the idea on the inside to not put batt insulation is just fine. It would add a little R value but not much in the grand scheme.
I think the RadonSeal is a waste of money for you. Save it and use it on the slab instead. Radon has been shown to travel straight up and the plastic drain board will hold it out better than a sealer anyway. But you could definately use it on the slab to keep the Radon out.

[icthrooyou]

Thanks Rich for the insights.

I agree, the RadonSeal will definitely work better on the slab as far as blocking Radon, but the other benefits in using it on the walls are the sealing of capillary action and the prevention of the alkali's from eating away at the waterproof coating. I'd really hate to have that coating start to eat away from the inside.

Well, gotta get this stuff done and get to framing!! :D

Take Care!!

[daniel_padgett_twins]

I have used HLM 5000 a number of times. I wouldn't use anything else again! That's not to say that there aren't other good quality products out there, it's just that I like my new waterproofing system that I've worked out with my structural engineer's approval. I use the roll -on version, at about 30-60 mils thick. I coat the 8 foot high foundation wall all the way to the top (or within 6 inches of it), and slop it all over the heel of the foundation as well - a continuous coating. Then I attach Miraflex 6200 - a high end product- as my darinboard, attaching it with Remington 1-1/2" power fasteners, #77560, using #5 Remington 27 calibers in my gun. The miraflex drainboard has a nice plastic layer which stops the dimples in the drainboard from die-cutting my coating. Then I back-fill with pea gravel, which is self-leveling and free-draining. By the way, when the engineered walls are installed I have 3" ABS pieces placed through the wall from the heel to the toe, and from there on to sump pumps. So, I have three layers of protection!
Yes, this is MY house, so I went overboard. Also, I have a 4 foot deep curtain drain around the house, so I can't see that there will ever be much hydrostatic pressure against my new foundation wall, which is inside the existing perimeter foundation wall, and which has created a 1400 sq ft basement with a 7'-6" finished ceiling height. This was NOT a homeowner project, but the waterproofing definitely is, and you can save a lot of money that way. You MUST have a full respirator, nose-mouth, and a fresh organic vapor cartridge in it. I would recommend a fresh cartridge each time you apply a coat on a wall section if more than a day elapses between coats. DO wear a TYVEK disposable jump-suit. DON"T have a source of an open flame. Give the HLM 5000 24 hours to cure- longer if its colder than 75 degrees or so. Also, your wall must be clean. You can wash off the footing and then wet-dry vaccum it, giving it a few days to dry. Your wall must be cured, at least 10 days or even longer if you can wait, because you don't want the wall to be too green if you're coay=ting and nailing to it. Good luck!

Any questions - let me know!
Lynton

[rkpatt]

I am a fiirm beliver in bituthene sheeting . However in in some recent drain ( draining diversion ) applications I have used the wrapped and unwrapped products from www.j-drain.com and www.americanwickdrain.com including interiond remedial work .