Help with basement window replacement

[sleepy hollow]

I have a 1985 house with poured concrete foundation. I have 5 aluminum sash single pane windows in the basement that are roughly 21" tall x 32" wide. They are sliders and can be removed by releasing a clip at the top of the sash and tilting in. The frame appears to be installed right into the concrete (apparently before curing was complete) and is about 3/4" thick.

I am finishing the basement and want to replace these with something reasonably nice. Cost is not a big issue, but then again, how much should one spend on such windows?

Here are my questions:

1) Should I chisel out the frame? Or leave it in? Has anyone out there experience with these builder specials and this install technique?

2) How should I mount the new windows? Use concrete anchors? Frame with PT? Currently the opening is at the top of the foundation with a PT header spanning the top of the opening and the top of the alum frame.

3) Since HD/Lowes do not have this odd size in a stocked replacement, what would you recommend I do? I plan to add double-glazed windows, but am open to hopper/awning/slider styles. I can see advantages/disadvantages to each. For example, sliders are convenient, but vinyl double glazed sliders have big sashes which take away from the size of the glazed area.

If I buy from HD, their standard quality custom order slider is about $125. I would pay more if I could find just the right solution, so your suggestions are most welcome.

Thanks

[grumpydasmurf]

Chisel the metal frame out. Install a buck frame which is essentially 1x4 all around the inside of the concrete. Now install your windows, and cap your exterior wood.

Install some modling on the inside and your done.

[sleepy hollow]

Thanks. I took another hard look at the alum fram over the weekend. Any reason not to leave the frame in? Seems like I could drill or shoot fasteners into this and save myself the work of replacing with PT wood. Also, the alum frame is only 1/2 inch wide, while 1X4 would be 3/4 inch: bigger rough opening.

I also checked with Lowes again. They seem to have a custom order doublke glazed slider for about $125 that does not have the huge sashes. Looks ok from the drawing.

[TnAndy]

I've replaced a lot of these.

What I do is remove the sash or sashes.....then "wreck" the frame out......it's usually just barely set in the concrete or block....small flange.....often the window was installed AFTER the pour and some mortar just grouted around the flange to hold it in place.

I order a custom replacement to go back in, sized to fit as tight as I can to the opening ( order EXACT SIZE, not opening size......they will cut opening size by 1/2-3/4 or more ) on the side,and maybe 1/2 " shy on the height so it's not such a bugger to get in that little hole.....the head expander that comes with replacements takes up that 1/2" easy.

To install, I run a couple of screw UP thru the head of the window, forcing the head expander up and screw into your wood sill above......watch your head expander.....it will go up, and then start back down when your screw head starts to pull the window upward.....stop right there.

On the bottom side jambs, there is usually a pre-drilled hole for the install screw.....I drill thru will a masonary bit and install a Tapcon screw there.....caulk around the inside and outside and you're done.

[sleepy hollow]

Thanks, TnAndy. Great info. I just ordered the windows Saturday, so should be doing the replacement within the month.

Glad to know it should be as easy as it looks. I kind of thought there would not be too much holding the frame in. Great to hear an experienced voice. That's what these forums are so great for.

[TnAndy]

You're quite welcome. If you run into a problem, use this same thread, and I'll get the email and check back....


andy

[jreid]

I searched around and did not find much guidance on this subject so I went ahead and did it anyway.

Although that little frame may look like it is not attached too well, it is cemented into the opening. Some contractors pour these things in place when they pour the wall. It was obvious to me when I started chiseling the concrete that I was in for some tough work.

Luckily, I have a large compressor and an air hammer. That allowed me to get the frame out and clean up the opening in about 3.5 hours. Believe me! That frame was not coming out with a hammer and chisel.

I purchased a drop-in replacement vinyl replacement from home depot. They have a slider and a tip-in version. They have three sizes that are about 3.5" think on the frame: 32x15, 32x17 and 32x21 (your size). The cost is $62, $65, $69 respectively.

I put it in the opening, shimmed it for placement and plumb and drilled into the concrete and put 2.75" tapcons in 8 places. I then used the great stuff foam for windows to seal everything up. I then place the vinyl (never-rot I think it is called) around the inside and outside to provide a finished look.

It took about 5 hours to do the one window and I am sore today.

Hope this helps someone in the future.

[sleepy hollow]

Jreid,

Sounds like quite an ordeal. Thanks for the heads up. I was hoping to simply cut the frame flush with the concrete if it did not come easily using other mechanical means like a hammer and chisel.

I was thikning I could slice the frame with a recip saw and install the new windows over the remains of the old frame? Did the stock windows require you to make your opening a bit larger?

In my case, none of the stock sizes at Lowes or HD actually fits my opening. I went ahead and ordered them to fit from Lowes. They had one I liked a little better than the HD. Cost was considerably more than stock, but this is a big project, and in the end the additional cost will barely be noticeable.

[jreid]

It was difficult to get a true size of the opening before removing the frame, but I did need to remove it entirely as there was no consistent surface to put the new window on. I tried to use the air hammer with a cutting chisel to remove only the part of the frame that was sticking out, but that ended up cracking the concrete and it then the frame got loose. I then just dove in and started removing the whole thing. After the opening was cleaned back up and evened out, the opening was exactly 32x17. Perfect for the standard sizes at HD.

The quality of the window at HD was quite nice. Now that it is in, it does a great job and looks nice too.

[sleepy hollow]

Thanks. Sounds like I might be a bit luckier, though I won't know until I can actually attack the existing frame. I have plenty of concrete frame to work with if I can get the aluminum shaved back.

I have 5 to do eventually. So, if it takes me 5 hours each, I'm in for some fun. But, I keep telling myself that patience is the key. I only have to do each one once.

Bottom line is that it has to be done. Sounds like you are happy with the result. Good.

One more thing in my case - the outside of 2 of the windows is almost inaccessable as they are under the deck, which is only a couple feet above ground level. Might have to rip up some decking to get to that part. Oh well, remodeling is so much more diffficult than new construction.

[Pokey]

Just out of curiosity. It sounds like you have galvanized bucks for your windows, so have you looked into getting upgraded vinyl insulated inserts for the bucks. If there are any local concrete supply houses they should be able to point you in the right direction to find them to match you bucks. It sounds like you have 15 20 windows which are pretty standard. It should take about 10-15 minutes to replace each one at most. some possible manufacturers are kewanee, bowman kemp or monarch. they are the most common around here. I believe bowman kemp can also make custom windows for your application. I would have mentioned this sooner but it seemed as though you had a plan of attack and purchased what you needed already.

[sleepy hollow]

Not sure I know what a "buck" is. Yes, I already paid for 3 of 5 windows. Will do the other 2 later, but they do not have to be the same type. Those 2 will be in my workshop. Thanks anyway. Will investigate your suggestions for the remaining 2.

[Pokey]

The buck is the metal frame poured into the concrete wall for the window insert to fit into.

[jreid]

The problem I see with keeping the metal buck in place is that the metal is a great conductor of heat which will make a cold surface that will condense moisture and, if it is cold enough, freeze on the surface.

I replaced the whole thing. Yesterday I was down in the basement doing some more remodeling. It was snowing and about 15 degrees outside. I looked at the window and noticed ice on the bottom. I walked over to it and felt cold air at the bottom. I didn't seal the outside too well as it was 9 degrees the day I installed it and didn't get it in until it was dark. Needless to say, in PA it gets cold and now I understand about the concerns with condensing moisture. Make sure you seal everything better than you think you should.

Get the buck out. It will be a moisture problem in a finished basement.

Here is another amazing thing I noticed. I am just framing the walls now. I am using the great stuff foam to seal the gaps between the header joist and the seal plate. There was a gap where one seal plate met the perpendicular one at a corner. I tried to shoot some foam into it, but the gap was only about 1/8" and I couldn't get the tip in. Anyway, I did my best. Yesterday when I was working down there, I had a drop light I was basically using for an extension cord. I moved the light and a shimmer caught my eye. On the surface of the corner of the dry-locked concrete wall was ice. This was just below the seal plate gap. I got the foam back out and let loose. About 30 minutes later the ice was nearly gone. WOW! Seal everthing and seal it again. Water will condense whever the is cold and that is a bad thing. Amazing that eventhough the basement rests at 60 something degrees that ice can form on the surface of the concrete!

Just my 2 cents.

[sleepy hollow]

Well, the Lowes deal failed. They screwed up the order and I simply asked for a refund (in a loud voice, I am afraid). They really got me upset. The windows came the same size as the rough opening. I drew pictures for the morons and they still screwed it up, and then tried to make me feel bad about it.

So, I went on to other things in the basement. Got all my electrical and new plumbing done.

Looks like Pokey is right and maybe I can find drop in replacements. I have been looking on the internet for buck replacement inserts. That would be too good to be true. I'll let you know what happens. Right now having trouble finding local dealers in northern Virginia.

Oh, and I have sworn off Lowes until further notice. They will have to come on their knees begging to get any more business from me. Of course, pigs will fly first...

[Pokey]

I would suggest if you have a day off and its sunny out to pull out one of the aluminum windows out and find your nearest concrete form supplier. they may be able to match your window quickly this way, at least a brand and if necessary you will be able to order an insulated window if they don't have one in stock. The size of that window you have is a 15/20. i would assume 2 possible manufacturers, monark or kewanee. good luck

[Pokey]

a couple of links for you
http://www.kewaneecorp.com/advantage.htm
http://www.monarchmanufacturing.com/Products/Replacement.asp
good luck!

[sleepy hollow]

Thanks I will do as you suggest.

In the meantime, I received a response from this web site:

www.windowsbyunlimited.com

They are proposing to fabricate a vinyl replacement window for about $160 including shipping that will slip over my existing frame. Tempting. This is about what I was going to pay Lowes for their window that would require that I eliminate the old frame.

Just for the record, not sure I ever gave the exact dimensions of the opening: 20.5" x 31.25"

Is that still a 1520? If so, I assume then it is a measure of the individual lights, not of the overall unit - yes?

[Pokey]

You are correct with the size of the lights. The actual window sizes are on those websites i posted. At any rate that quote of $160 is not out of this world as it will save you a lot of time trying to find out what system you have in place already. You will pay close to that for kewanee's insulated vinyl window i believe.

[sleepy hollow]

I finally got a chance to look for a concrete forms outfit here, and spoke to one who claims they can get me replacement inserts. I hope to have time to swing by there tomorrow with one of my old ones.

I'll let you know what happens.

[sleepy hollow]

Well, the concrete forms company only sells one brand, and they were kind enough to lend me an insert to see if it would fit. It did not. At the same time I was able to find a label on one of my windows and found out they are Columbia windows.

Now I am chasing down a Columbia rep locally to find out if they will sell me the inserts.

[sleepy hollow]

Well, it was quicker than I thought. My new insulated inserts will be arriving late next week or early the following week. I ordered the painted white aluminum. Thought that would look a bit better than just milled aluminum.

The rep was great. This should save me a great deal of time and money. Looks like the price per window is about $50. This is too good to be true.

I'll let you knopw if it actually works out.

[Rich]

Right on.. do let us know how it all works out.

[Pokey]

Good deal. Sounds like you finally lucked out!

[sleepy hollow]

I received the new window inserts yesterday. They are just fine. Look very good and the price was a bargain at $45 each.

This will save me at least one whole weekend of work if I had chosen to remove the old frames and install new units.

Instead it takes less than one minute to remove the old inserts and insert the new ones.

I am a very happy camper.