Routers?

[giddonah]

The long story:

I got sick of trying to strip the paint off some moulding and decided to just replace it and save the time. Ready made was about $1/lf and I have roughly 18'/door and right now, four doors to do, plus some big windows with another 16' each. I figure I can save 75% by making my own. I went to find a router bit for the job, which wasn't in stock at Lowes or HD. I found some on the net, but they only come in 1/2" collet sizes. My router (don't laugh) is only a 1/4" craftsman. I have tons of moulding to do not only in this house, but in houses to come, so a new router & table would easily pay for itself.

The short story:

I'm looking for a router/table setup that can handle 1/2" bits and will last a while. I already have a router that I'll probably keep as a quick portable job, so a pure table would work. I'm ready to go $350 or even $400 if I have to, but I'm not going to be routing every day, but more than an average DIY'er. If my results come out as good as I hope, I'll probably move on to crown and whatever else I can find to run through the thing.

Anyone want to educate me? Please?

[giddonah]

I'm thinking of doing something tomorrow. I'm thinking of getting this:

http://www.coastaltool.com/cgi-bin/SoftCart.exe/a/port/892.htm?L+coastest+lqxk7292ffbc61bc+1104952628

and this:

http://www.coastaltool.com/cgi-bin/SoftCart.exe/a/port/pr698.htm?L+coastest+lqxk7292ffbc61bc+1104953074

I'd love to get some input on this so I don't regret anything later.

[Rich]

http://www.rockler.com/ecom7/product_details.cfm?&offerings_id=894
and then buy the Milwaukee D handle.

[Dragon]

If you are seriously planning on running moldings you are going to need a bigger router.

http://www.porter-cable.com/index.asp?e=547&p=4497

And I prefer the big Bosch router table for portability.

http://www.boschtools.com/tools/tools-detail.htm?H=175980&G=54940&I=55078

I use them daily and they stand the test of time. I built removable wings for the table so I can run long material through it.

Having said that, routers really aren't heavy enough. I have this being delivered on Friday.

http://www.deltawoodworking.com/index.asp?e=136&p=959


I suspect by the time you are through you will discover that $1 a foot is fairly cheap.

[Rich]

I want one of these :)
http://www.woodmastertools.com/s/planers.cfm

[giddonah]

Woah!! Hey, fellas, down here. Come back to me. Easy on the horse power there dragon.

I was liking that rockler table. I found the milwaukee d handle. It's only 1 1/4 hp though. What about the rockler table and the PC I referenced before:

http://www.coastaltool.com/cgi-bin/SoftCart.exe/a/port/892.htm?L+coastest+lqxk7292ffbc61bc+1104952628

And, with trim running roughly $20/door/window, and I can make it for $5/door/window, it's going to add up quickly. Plus, I'm going to save all that time and frustration stripping three layers of paint and end up with a much better result.

And, is the rockler leg set worth the $75, or can I just build my own just as good. I think I can do pretty good, but the $75 will save me some time building it, and it's made to fit...

[Rich]

I built my own legs from 2x4's and put a shelf on it about 9" from the bottom to hold cases, tools, and bits. If I get time later I'll enclose the area under the top to have a vacuum system set up. So IMO the legs aren't worth $75. My leg set took about 30 minutes to build.
1 1/4? Oh my bad - this is the one I was talking about - they look more like D's :)
http://www.milwaukeeconnect.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=27&catalogId=40027&langId=-1&productId=284400&mainHeader=Tools&categoryId=189343&mainCategoryId=362&parentProd=281166

[Rich]

It's not cheap - but it's a Milwaukee. :)

[giddonah]

Um. Yeah. Cheap it ain't. At what point is the 2 1/4 hp not good enough? I wouldn't mind saving $130 and getting this one:

http://www.toolking.com/milwaukee/view.asp?ID=6275


It's not like I'm going to be using the thing every day. If I really should get the bigger one I'll do it, I just don't want to get something I won't use to it's full capability. Ah crap, I love shopping for things I know about, but this sucks, and there isn't much in the way of reviews for these things out there.

BTW, do you guys shop online for this stuff or do you go local?

[Rich]

I typically do like you're doing - ask questions and look for some reviews then buy locally if I can't find it online cheaper.
The 2 1/4 will do about everything you'll need unless you get into full width cuts on 1x6's or something - it might bog down then.

[Rich]

And I should say - I'm only kidding about my last post - if you are doing full width cuts save some fingers and get a shaper :)

[Dragon]

And I should say - I'm only kidding about my last post - if you are doing full width cuts save some fingers and get a shaper :)

And don't forget the power feeder.

:wink:



giddonah, before I can really answer your question concerning horsepower needs I need to know what profile you plan on running.

[giddonah]

Well, right off the bat I'm going to run 1x2's through it with something like this:

http://coastaltool.com/cgi-bin/SoftCart.exe/a/ab/aman/molding.htm?L+coastest+rcdp5250ff664a66+1105002154

(probably bit 54222 right now, then maybe even some crown later)

[Rich]

1 5/8" depth will be about max for just about anything less than 3hp router. Any larger than that and you would be much better off with a shaper or a tablesaw with spindle arbor.
If you do try and do something larger with your router table make sure it's got plenty of mass so it doesn't shake the thing apart :)

[giddonah]

Well, I think I'm not going to get it by this weekend, so I'll give myself some more time to think about this. I really appreciate your thoughts on this.

Ok, so if I do go for the 3 1/2, it'll handle crown, where the 2 1/4 won't like it so much? If that's right, I might go for the rockler table (and make my own legs) and the 3 1/2 milwaukee.

For the record, anything wrong with any other brand of router, or is milwaukee your preference in general for all power tools? My friend has a sawzall that must be at least 6 or 7 years old. He says he loves it, and that it's better than a woman. :lol:

[Rich]

Milwaukee is just my preference due to their motors more than anything.
Porter Cable would probably be my next choice.

I'm not going to say the 2 1/4 won't handle it - just that it's likely to try and shake quite a bit. On some molding profiles you can take smaller cuts - take 3 successive passes to get it.. others will need to be full depth all in one shot. So if you can - get profiles that you can take 2-3 small cuts and the 2 1/4 will be just fine.

[giddonah]

Ok. I think I'm going to go 3 1/2. I don't want to be wishing I had when I'm trying to do some crown and it keeps bogging down. I'm now down to two,

the PC ($270)
http://www.porter-cable.com/index.asp?e=547&p=2819

and the Milwaukee ($300)
http://www.milwaukeeconnect.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=27&catalogId=40027&langId=-1&productId=284400&mainHeader=Tools&categoryId=189343&mainCategoryId=362&parentProd=281166

I think the milwaukee is going to win for doing both 1/4" and 1/2" collets and the depth adjustment system. Well, I guess it'll take 6 rooms to pay for it instead of 4, but it'll be nice to have the capability. Thanks everyone for your input.

[Dragon]

For what you plan to use it for you'll be making a wise investment.

[giddonah]

Nice. That's what I want to hear!! :D

[giddonah]

Ok, I got a gripe now. Rockler doesn't make a pre-drilled plate for the Milwaukee. What the hell is up with that? I need a drill press to drill these holes!?!? Is the Milwaukee not that popular? They have plates for Freud (which I've never heard of), and Hitachi (which I didn't even know made routers until two days ago), but not Milwaukee? Oh no, not the one I want to put in it. It's got to be difficult. Now I have to call around to find someone with a damn drill press. What a PITA!@@#!#!$%!@# Why the hell can't the PC be the one I decided on instead of the Milwaukee...

[Rich]

The Porter Cable (3-hole) plate fits the Milwaukee - I had the same problem with mine.
I ended up drilling the blank they sent with my cordless and rounding out the holes with a 60 degree steel countersink. Then I found that the Porter Cable fit :)

[giddonah]

Hmm. Well, that certainly would eliminate a huge problem. Why wouldn't they market it then? What's wrong with these people? Ok, I'll get the PC plate. I hope to hell you're right Rich. Everyone cross their fingers with me.

[Rich]

Don't they have a rockler store in New York?

[Rich]

5085 Transit Rd, Buffalo, NY 14221
29 Andover St., Danvers, MA 01923
2154 Massachusetts Ave, Cambridge, MA 02140

Any of those close?

I would buy your router and then go to the store and actually pick it out.

[giddonah]

Well, I just talked to the tech there. It sounds like it might fit, but he wasn't too convincing. It sounds like it's not such a big deal to just drill my own holes, which definitely would fit it, so I'm doing what you did Rich. I'll also need a hole for the height adjustment, which the guy said the PC plate had, but most certainly won't be in the right spot. No sense in having extra holes in the thing. Ok, drama over. :)

[giddonah]

Nope, they're all 4-5 hrs away. I'm in nyc and my project houses are an hour northwest. I think drilling will be fine. Thanks for all your help.

[giddonah]

ahhaha, just when you thought I was done!

One last question. Dust port? Featherboards? The dust port is $13 and there is a kit with three featherboards and the dust port for $40.

http://www.rockler.com/ecom7/product_details.cfm?&sku=10274&cs=1

You think they're useful? I'm wondering if I'll just take off the featherboards after 20 min. Do you guys do the whole vacuum setup stuff for table equipment?

[Dragon]

Unless you have one heck of a shop vac or dust collection system the dust port is useless.

Keeping an air blower on the end of a hose handy will serve you better.


Dust collection systems are great for shops but they seldom do any good in portable situations. Buy a broom.

[giddonah]

Gotcha. I actually like the sawdust all over the floor, it makes me feel like I'm getting something done :) although, finding a dropped screw can take a couple seconds :lol:

What about the featherboards? After doing a little routing, I can see how they might be useful, but I can also see how they might just get in the way. Any experiences with them?

[Rich]

Featherboards are nice for longer material - they'll keep the material in place while you get your second grip. For shorter stuff they just get in the way IMO.

[giddonah]

I decided to go without the featherboards. Maybe I'll try them sometime, but I just don't like the idea of spending money on stuff that I won't use (original, I know). It's all ordered. Now I have to be patient :( Thanks for everyone's input on this, I'm sure I would have made a huge mistake without you guys.

[Dragon]

Since you're going to be making long runs you might as well get a powerfeeder.

:twisted:


Ok now seriously, you might want to look into one. Delta makes a smaller one that isn't too bad on price.

[giddonah]

It arrived today!! I can't wait to get started tomorrow. It's sweet. Cheers Rich and Dragon. Thanks for your help.

That power feeder might just be next :)

[Rich]

Right on - it's great fun :)
Did the plate work on the Milwaukee?

[Dragon]

And remember to be careful.

Knots and other irregularities in your wood can catch your stock and kick it. In a shaping situation it can only go one way, directly toward you.

[giddonah]

got it all set up today. Luckily, my friend is a lot better at machining stuff than I am and showed up right before I messed the plate up. It's 1/32" away from perfection. I ran some pine 1x2's through it. It's awesome. Yes, it's powerful. He was running a board through it and the thing kicked the board out and it slammed into a door. Luckily nobody's crotch was in the way :wink: . We do have some questions about it's use now though.

It's variable speed. How do you know what speed to set it at? Is the size of the sawdust/chips some kind of indication?

Is there a way to start a board on the front end without splintering it? We just start a couple inches in from the front end and go all the way to the back end and plan on wasting the front couple inches on each board.

You can file this last one with my question on building the subfloors separate from the walls. I got a 8' 1x8 (or 1x10?) mdf shelf and ripped 1 1/2" off it and ran that 1x2 through the router. It goes through much easier, but the surface is fuzzy. I bet there are tons of reasons not to use mdf for moulding and I was just wondering what they were.

I can't wait to show you guys some pictures of this room when we finish it.

[Rich]

There are lots of mdf moldings - but they are typically pressed into shape. The cut edges of mdf are sometimes difficult to get to take paint. I've done everything from rubbing caulk on them to putting a good primer. The primer seemed to work the best.
The manual should have a speed settings table. I'll look around and see if I can find one otherwise.
Also - a little note on safety - for smaller pieces you should run the edge through from a larger board and then rip off the small piece. Much easier and safer to handle.
When starting the board you should get as close to the end as possible - it's especially bad on softwoods like pine. Denser woods you won't see as big a problem with it.
As far as speed - the faster it is the slower you'll need to feed it. You should feel some resistance - but if it feels difficult to feed you're probably going too fast.

[giddonah]

When starting the board you should get as close to the end as possible - it's especially bad on softwoods like pine. Denser woods you won't see as big a problem with it.
I'm not following you with this. I start a couple inches from the front end and just cut the un-routed part off, but why get as close to the end as possible? How close, are we talking inches or 1/16ths? With denser woods I can start on the end?

Also, I checked the owner's manual. No speed chart. If hard to feed means slow it down, how do you know you need to speed it up? I have it set at 3.5 (goes from 1-7) and feeding feels a little rough, I'll try a slower setting.

[Rich]

If I have a roller bearing (bit) to run against I typically line the center of the roller up with the end of the board essentially right at the end of the board. With softwood (pine, df, this doesn't apply to mdf) I'll start a little further in and then run to the near end of the board (i.e. backwards) then finish up the rest of the board.
Getting back to the bit speed (not sure how large a bit you are using) the larger the bit the slower you'll want to spin the bit and hence slower the feed rate. The same goes for longer bits. You'll see quite a bit of chatter the faster you spin a long bit (runout). If you see decreases in bit performance I suggest taking multiple passes, slowing the router down, and slowing the feed rate down. You'll get used to it.
Here are some guidelines for bit size:
1" bit width - 24000 rpm
1.25" - 2" - 18000 rpm
2.25" - 2.5" - 16000 rpm
3 - 3.5" - 12000 rpm
then adjust your feedrate for best performance.

[giddonah]

With softwood (pine, df, this doesn't apply to mdf) I'll start a little further in and then run to the near end of the board (i.e. backwards) then finish up the rest of the board.
You don't have a problem feeding the board with the rotation of the bit? As I understant it, you only want to go against the bit. Any time I've gone with the bit I've had the board catch and do unpleasant things (like my friend's projectile for instance).

I'm using a medium bit I guess. It is 1 1/2" from the bottom to the bearing at the top. It does cut a good deal of wood out though. It suggests trimming the board with a table saw first so the bit has to do less work. I'm about to go do that now. Is there a problem running a small bit at low speeds?

[Dragon]

mdf can make a good molding, but don't try to use your bits for everything. mdf will dull a bit faster than wood.

And yes, prime it.

[Tom R]

Like Rich says, - - it's better to 'rout' first, - - then 'rip' your width, - - (a 1 X 2 is a lot flimsier than a 1 X 8.)

If the book says it the other way around, - - it is simply 'wrong'.

And yes, - - you do want to push your wood 'against' the bit rotation, - - but you also need to orient your edge-grain direction for less tear-out.

Cut 'with' the angle of the grain lines, - - not against it.

Envision the grain-lines like a row of separate pieces of wood, - - and cut 'with' them, - - not 'into' them.

If your piece is 'flying' you're either 'climb-cutting', or cutting against the grain direction, and /or removing to much 'meat' at once.

Hopefully, you're not running the wood 'between' the bit and the fence, like you would on a table saw.

[giddonah]

thanks for all the tips. My friend was thinking of running the board between the bit and the fence. I didn't think that was right and we didn't do it. With the two of us working together we usually end up doing it right :)

I'm doing pine instead of mdf since the test molding took the primer and paint well, but would still have a "fuzzy" texture to it and people would be walking past the door frames and would be able to see the difference in the surfaces. It's starting to come out decent. My mother stopped in on my work and saw a board with the uncut end and thought it looked awesome. I'm now using the 4" uncut end on the bottoms of the door frames. I'll get some pics up on tuesday when I get back to the city.

[Rich]

You don't have a problem feeding the board with the rotation of the bit? As I understant it, you only want to go against the bit. Any time I've gone with the bit I've had the board catch and do unpleasant things (like my friend's projectile for instance).

I'm using a medium bit I guess. It is 1 1/2" from the bottom to the bearing at the top. It does cut a good deal of wood out though. It suggests trimming the board with a table saw first so the bit has to do less work. I'm about to go do that now. Is there a problem running a small bit at low speeds?

I only backfeed it less than 1/2" - shouldn't need any more than that. You are correct - you definately don't want to feed a full length board with the rotation of the bit.
Every bit will have a different setup as far as speed of router and speed of feed. You just need to get a feel for it. For the small bit at low speeds - again it just depends. Taking some of the wood out so the bit is working less is a good idea - that's what I was saying about multiple passes for tall and/or wide bits.

[giddonah]

Got a couple pics. My temporary router setup (with a healthy collection of sawdust :) ) and the unpainted molding. I don't know if the molding looks better in real life or not, the pic isn't that good.

Edit: I do love the thing though. I'm starting to collect tools I actually want to use :)

[Rich]

Looks good giddonah. What's the width - looks about 2.5" or so?

[giddonah]

no, bad pic. It's a 1x2. I'll get some better pics when I finally paint the room and get the carpet in. It's taking forever it seems since I only get progress on weekends. It'll be nice though.