Propane Heat?

[jmwhite]

I have a cabin in Western Maryland mountains that currently uses baseboard heaters as main source of heat. Needless to say, it is very expensive, and after a friend had his house burn down due to a faulty baseboard heater, I am worried about using it.
We are considering using a forced air propane heating system. I have some questions if someone can help.
1) Is propane heat more economical than electrical baseboard heaters?
2) The cabin in question has a unheated crawlspace (with about 4' clearance). Could the heating unit be placed underneath in the crawlspace and then have ductwork run under floor? Does this sound feasible?
3) The cabin is about 1700 sqft, and has a 17' vaulted cieling. Any issues with size?

Any help or weblinks for more info is greatly appreciaited.
JMW

[VALENT]

Propane heat will be very economical for you. The furnace and ductwork can definitely be installed under your cabin with that much crawlspace. Also, you will find more info at USEPROPANE.COM.

[bkrahmer]

Valent, that's a good link. The prices of electricity and LP in your area really factor into whether it will be economical or not. Up here in Northern ID, electricity is dirt cheap and LP is about 1.50 a gallon, so LP is probably actually more. However, we really, really wanted radiant heat in our house, so we went with LP for everything. I especially dislike electric heat, and don't care for forced air very much either. If you are a DIYer, you should consider doing radiant heating. It's about the most efficient heat you can get, and if you DIY, you could get the cost down to be comparable with installation of a furnace.

[dhill]

Yep, I vote for checking into the radiant also. With propane, it's going to be economical. Propane here is about 1.55, and that's cheaper than electricity. I guess the price will vary.

[Sparks]

Plenty of room for furnace and ductwork. If you ever want ac obviously a forced air furnace would make sense over hw baseboard, but you could do it either way for a price. Definetly compare local prices of propane vs electricity. A heat pump might even be a feasible option for you which would give you both heat and a/c. The modern heat pump is very efficient and they have drastically improved them making them a possible option in many regions of the country. No propane or oil tanks to worry about and very safe. Whatever you choose, do one thing for sure, have a heat loss/ heat gain calculation done to determine proper sizing of equipment. An hvac contractor can usually do this for you or you can purchase and download a program from the web. Around 50 bucks for 2 month homeowner use. Don't depend on rule-of-thumb sizing because there are way too many variables for that (insulation, ceiling height, window quality, etc. ) Fossil fuel is too valuable to be guessing at something like that.

[bkrahmer]

Just a clarification: I meant under-floor radiant heat, not baseboard or radiator radiant heat...

[Hometown Handyman]

Have you considered wood (wood stove in conjunction with propane)
I use it here in Ont. and have only used one tank of heating oil all winter.
Just a thought.

[VALENT]

I dont think that propane could possibly cost more for heating than electric at any point. The costs pretty much rise at the same rate(generally) but the efficiency of propane is much higher. Also, forced air heating element heaters produce a very dry (uncomfortably dry) heat. I am not talking about heat pumps or radiant heat but furnaces or heaters which use elements.

[bkrahmer]

I'm gonna have to disagree with you there, valent. In that calculator that you posted, I put in $.05 for electric price, and $1.49 for propane (our costs in N ID), and the propane came out more. Some will cite that electric is 99% efficient. At the point of use, that is true. However, that neglects the inefficiencies at the point of generation, line losses, over capacity, etc. So, from end-to-end, electricity is only about 60% efficient, but the 40% inefficiency is already built into the price you pay, therefore it is 99% efficient based on your end-user cost.

I agree that electric heat sucks, but it can be cheaper under some circumstances. Another reason I went with radiant is that I plan on building a hot water storage tank that hooks up to a wood burning stove that I can get most of my heat and hot water out of, at least in the winter.

[VALENT]

Oh bkrahmer, I definitely think radiant under floor heating is excellent. How did you come up with 0.05 electricity? On my bill(and this is just the first 250kwh) I have a service charge of 5.59, a charge of .019694/kwh, and a charge of .061079/kwh for fuel factor for generation, I am paying significantly more than .05. On my bill, it says the average I paid for electricity this month was $0.117 /kwh. Using the calculator for Houston, TX my propane heating cost would be 606$ or electric would be $1143. I am sure the calculator may very well be skewed some but that is a big difference and seems to coincide with my brother(propane heat) versus my (presently electric heat) costs. I used a propane cost of $1.50.

[bkrahmer]

You may think it's unbelievable, but up here in N ID, that's what we pay. My electric rate is actually .045, then there's a service charge. Effective rate ends up being a nickel.

We pretty much have the lowest rates in the country because nearly all of our power comes from hydro, from dams built over a half century ago, like Grand Coulee and Bonneville.

[VALENT]

Well mark one for electric heat. I will say if electricity was that cheap here things would probably be different for me too. A lot of people do use heat pumps here anyways. I wouldn't mind hearing what more people in other areas are paying for electric and propane.

[Sparks]

5 cents?! Lucky you, we're also about 11 cents here where I'm at. If our rates were only 5 cents a kwh I for one, would definitely be using a heat pump. As I'm sure some of you know heat pumps are many times more efficient than electric baseboard heat, especially in milder winters when the back up elements never even kick on. There are also heatpumps available with back-up propane or gas heaters that kick on when needed. I don't care when anyone says, around here propane heat will put ya in the poorhouse! But I guess these days, what wont??

[giddonah]

If I remember it right, ConEd here in NYC is at $.17/kWh

[VALENT]

Sparks, what does propane cost or natural gas in your area? And Giddonah, at least we dont have it that bad(.17) yet. By the way, I fudged on my propane cost--it is actually about $1.80 right now.

[Sparks]

Costs depend usually on how much you consume, the more you use usually the cheaper they sell it to ya. Varies between $1.75- $2.79 from what I've seen. Buyer beware, at least around here for propane. I can't get natural gas where I live because it's not on my street yet, kind of a rural area. The one good thing though, is that the Indian Reservations around here sell it very reasonable (no taxes or fees involved), only problem is they don't deliver.

[VALENT]

What size tank do you have?

[Sparks]

And of course "poorhouse" is a relative term, right now even my phone bill puts me in the "poorhouse", works slow around here. I always check the data plate when I come across heat pumps or newer a/c units and I'm amazed at how little power there consuming these days compared to years ago. They've really come a long way in terms of performance and efficiency. But, there's still a large majority of people around here that think all heat pumps are junk and they won't work under 32 degrees or so and they don't realize that times have changed.

[VALENT]

Oh no. Growing up we only used a heat pump. They worked very well. They also had an electic element to supplement their output. The only problem we ever had is when it got real cold outside and the units would freeze over. But their power consumption is still large.

[Sparks]

Because I refuse to pay more than I have to for anything, I picked up a 100 lb. tank and just throw it in the truck and get it filled at the reservation, of course they don't care, they still fill the old style, now illegal tanks, soveriegn nation, they don't care about N.Y's laws. Fine by me, saves a lot of money. You can get a 20lb grill tank filled there for less than 8 bucks. A lot less than anywhere else around here, contrary to some peoples opinions, you can get gouged pretty bad price wise living in a small rural town so ya gotta shop around and be willing to drive a bit. Yeah, it's a little more work than just having it delivered but I usually have the time in the winter months due to the slow economy.

[Sparks]

I don't think there would be much freeze-up problems anymore on a modern heat pump because they have defrost control either accomplished with solid state circuitry or timers. They just activate the reversing valve and send hot gas to the outdoor coil to defrost periodically.

[VALENT]

these units were installed in 1989 and still have the freeze up problems.

[Sparks]

I'm not saying it's impossible, but the newer units are supposed to prevent it. Heat pumps are also extremely sensitive to poor installation methods. Were the pumps dehydrated to less than 500 microns using the triple evacuation method? Who knows? Was there moisture left somewhere in the system or entered the system during installation? Is the defrost method utilized functional? Has it ever been checked by a competent service technician? I'm certainly not trying to suggest that modern heat pumps are perfect, just a lot better than they used to be.

[VALENT]

it has only been serviced by a competent technician. He sold, installed and services the unit all. The freezing up is on the outside of the compressor unit as ice forms on the fins. This is not a constant problem, only when it is cold and humid. I dont think any of the three units have a "defrost method" to utilize.

[Sparks]

That may have been an option on your units, maybe the installer didn't think defrost was neccesary in your location. Around here, a heat pump wouldn't be much good with out some way to defrost the outside coil when needed.

[HVACTexas]

Future prices of fuel sources are fairly unpredictable. Advice today may not hold true tomorrow.

The potential for setting your home on fire is much greater with electric heat that with gas in my opinion.

In the crawl gas furnaces are possible but it makes it difficult to find a place to vent the flue gasses in many cases.

I recommend you have your "high utility bills" problem diagnosed by a professional. No disrepect meant but you have diagnosed the problem yourself. The problem may be due to air leaks in the envelope or other R-value related deficiencies. If this is true then going with a different fuel source really won't solve your problem. I know it is difficult to find someone that really knows how to diagnose such a problem but I suspect you have put quite a bit of time researching on the elect/propane debate. If you spend that time instead by searching out a good quality contractor he can make those decisions for you.

One other option could be a pellet stove. Since it is a cabin the stove might enhance the appearance also. Air distribution would be the disadvantage. The people I know that use pellet stoves are very happy with their performance.


http://www.pelletstovewholesale.com/Pellet_stove_J1812.17.jpg

[Sparks]

I'm not quite sure who it is you're addressing but your statement that electric heat poses a much higher risk of setting a home on fire is silly. You're obviously just peddling a product here and you're probably better off with E-bay or another similar site.

[giddonah]

I don't think HVACTexas is peddling anything, this isn't his first post (not that that's my only reasoning). He did start that thread about GC requirements that got good. Let's give him a chance here before we tag him. I've seen pellet stoves and I would consider one.

[Sparks]

Well then my apologies. Looked and sounded like a sales pitch to me. :oops:

[HVACTexas]

Nope no sales pitch here. I don't even know if a pellet stove would be correct for the application because I can't see the cabin. I just wanted the poster to know it was an option.

My fault for not having my profile filled out.

As for the safety issue I stated it was my opinion and that is all it is. I have no data to back it up other than emprical. All I can say is I have seen many many more fires caused by loose electrical connections than I have gas flame related problems. Electrical fires aren't accurately named. They should be called electrical explosions. The heat they generate is much hotter than any flame ever could be.

[Rich]

I might agree with you Sparks - if HVAC had posted a link along with the message.

Anyway - I know quite a few people in MT that are using corn fueled stoves :) . With the gov subsidizing and essentially destroying some corn farmers crops they figured they would make money off it - and hence the corn fed stoves. Pretty efficient heat from what I hear.

[Sparks]

Guess I jumped to conclusions. I'm all for any alternative to fossil fuel. I wish there were more options that were readily available to everyone to ease our expense and dependency.

[rabadger]

You need to figure out what temp you need to keep it. Do not let your return air temperature into the equipment get around 45 degrees. The heat exchanger will sweat. When you are not using it keep it at 55 degrees. In order to run the load calculations the evelation most also be known.

Install an alarm to call you if the temperature drops to 45 degrees.

[VALENT]

hvac, my high utility bills are where we rent. My choice of propane heat is for the house I am building. My parents high utility bills are in the house they own and use and is very much related to their personal preferences in life. However, their preferences would be cheaper if they chose to heat with propane instead of electricity.

[dhill]

The cheapest heat I've heard of is from a friend of mine who put in a wood fireplace in the cabin/home he built and used ductwork to deliver forced hot area inside the house. He uses pallets for fuel. He gets those pallets for pennies. His heating bill for a year is less than $100.

[VALENT]

Now thats the way to go. But I'm guessing a fair bit of work.