EIFS, Stucco and Waterproofing

[eifs]

All the EIFS failures should be blamed on the General Contractors. If the GC's hadn't used wood as the substrate and used the EIFS as it was intended, lawyers and so-called EIFS inspectors wouldn't be making a mint.

RFS[/code]

[Rich]

haha.. well it's easy to enough to blame someone else isn't it.. but I haven't seen a GC install EIFS lately. If you are installing EIFS over the wrong substrate then shame on you. Same thing a painter does - goes through and checks the drywall to see if it's ready for him - you should also check your wall to see if you're installing over the right substrate. You should also include it in your contract.
You say that it shouldn't be installed over a wood substrate - take a look at many of the specifications for the systems - here's just one
a. Acceptable substrates shall
include:
1) APA Exterior or Exposure
1 rated Plywood, Grade CD
or better, nominal 3 mm
(1/2 in), minimum 4-ply.
2) APA Exposure 1 rated
Oriented Strand Board
(OSB), nominal 13 mm
(1/2 in).

[eifs]

If you think that I'm passing the buck then you should quit smoking that stuff. Every repair that I've ever done was done without the cooperation of the GC. On the contrary, the GC's never accept responsibility for anything because they are protecting their wallets. Isn't it the responsibility of the GC to insure that all trades perform their jobs to the best of their abilities?

The fact is that regardless of your specs, EIFS shouldn't be applied directly or indirectly on wood. Period. I think it's amazing that so-called experts foolishly refer to EIFS specs as the ten commandments on stucco; especially since it wasn't that long ago that residential construction consisted of nothing more than logs.

EIFS was intended to go over concrete or cementious substrates. If you don't take my word for it then do some research. It was not until the 1980's that America, because of our abundance of wood and to a lesser degree our ambitious pursuit of innovation,not to mention the fact that wood is cheaper and the bottom line is more important than integrity, decided to modify the specs by introducing mechanical fasteners and of all things, glue into the application process.

I think builders should be held accountible along with the manufacturers and distributors.

[Rich]

Isn't it the responsibility of the GC to insure that all trades perform their jobs to the best of their abilities?
GC's aren't experts on EIFS, or mechanical, or whatever. If your opinion is that it shouldn't be installed over wood - then it's your responsibility to inform the GC. Then you can go to the manufacturer and have them change their specification. If EIFS is only supposed to go over concrete/masonry then there is a serious disconnect between the installer and the manufacturer.. that's not my fault. If a specification says it can go over wood - how is a GC supposed to challenge that.. especially if you don't speak up and tell them?
So you're blaming wood framing on the GC as if if's a bad thing? HAHA. Do you realize what you're saying? Wood framing has been around since .. well since Christ (he was a carpenter you know).

[eifs]

You keep insinuating that I apply EIFS to improper substrates. I don't.

GC's aren't experts on much. They are merely jacks of all trades with a license. I didn't mean to suggest that they should be considered the experts on EIFS. I was trying to relay the fact that as a builder, the GC should: 1. Know Better and 2. If He or she doesn't know better than they should get out of the business.

At the risk of sounding adversarial I must say that you sound somewhat sympathetic to the "greedy industry" and not so for the homeowners that pay for their incompetence in the long run.

I apply EIFS as I know it should be applied and not according to specs written by money hungry manufacturers. After all, we are talking stucco and not rocket science. I only hope that one day common sense will dictate and all you know it alls will see the light.

I do not do commercial work but I do high end residential at top dollar. Believe or not, that is the only market in the EIFS industry that is open to thinking Against The Grain. No pun intended.

Jesus was a carpenter; but he wasn't building two story single family homes. And by the way stucco was the main facade used in residential as well as commercial in jesus's time.

[Tom R]

Eifs, - - quite the 'bitter' pill you've swallowed, (or so it seems), - - and some 'dramatic' way to enter a forum, - - but over-all we're generally pretty friendly and accomodating around here, - - and we'd be more than glad to have you join us, - - but just 'walking in' and hurling insults doesn't seem like a great way to attract friends real fast, - - feel free to join the great crowd around here, - - but keep in mind that 'respect' for one another is what keeps us all moving forward. Thanks Eifs.

[Cole]

Great Post, my thoughts exactly.

[eifs]

OK, so this is not the place to voice my opinions about issues that effect my trade, however controversial they may be. That's fine. I'll be politcally correct and just accept everything on face value.

I may have just entered your forum two weeks ago, but I've been doing EIFs for fifteen years and I don't think of myself as a newbie. I'm sorry if you are offended with my straight-forwardness, and I'll sincerely try not to hurt anyones feeeeelings.

I'm a mason by trade and I'm a master applicator in traditional and synthetic stucco. This is what I do for a living. It's what puts grub on the table. When I hear about unscrupulous practices in my industry I feel obligated to speak out. Am I a fanatic? Maybe; But I rest comfortably at night knowing that I've studied my trade and am knowledgeable enough to educate my customers. It may sound corny but that is the key to success.

All I'm saying is that before you badmouth anything, take the time to do the research.

[Rich]

I have to go back to your original (and first in the forum) post eifs. I don't mind you speaking your piece - but do you seriously believe this statement?

All the EIFS failures should be blamed on the General Contractors. If the GC's hadn't used wood as the substrate and used the EIFS as it was intended, lawyers and so-called EIFS inspectors wouldn't be making a mint.

If so, yes you are a fanatic, maybe you should look to another profession, and I don't care if you have been in the industry for 15 years - you don't have a clue about anything in the construction industry.
Now I will respectfully bow out of your post.

[eifs]

I may not have a clue about how hicks do things in your neck of the woods, but what I do know is that you are totally rediculous. Who the heck made you the great guru of construction. You are the one who is clueless. I respectfully request that you read a book or two.

[Tom R]

[quote="eifs"]OK, so this is not the place to voice my opinions about issues that effect my trade, however controversial they may be. That's fine. I'll be politcally correct and just accept everything on face value.[quote]

Controversy is fine, - - diplomacy is even better.

[quote]I may have just entered your forum two weeks ago, but I've been doing EIFs for fifteen years and I don't think of myself as a newbie. I'm sorry if you are offended with my straight-forwardness, and I'll sincerely try not to hurt anyones feeeeelings. [quote]

'Newbies' and 'old-timers' are equally as welcome around here, - - no need to apologize for offending anyone, - - most folks around here pride themselves on their work ethic and their dedication to their customers, - - your accusations are too far fetched to actually be taken seriously, - - I was actually more concerned about you embarrassing yourself on a 'national' forum.

[quote]I'm a mason by trade and I'm a master applicator in traditional and synthetic stucco. This is what I do for a living. It's what puts grub on the table. When I hear about unscrupulous practices in my industry I feel obligated to speak out. Am I a fanatic? Maybe; But I rest comfortably at night knowing that I've studied my trade and am knowledgeable enough to educate my customers. It may sound corny but that is the key to success.[quote]

If you took the word 'mason' and traded it for the respective trade of anyone around here, - - a similar statement to this would come out of any one of their mouths, - - so which part about 'respect' for others (and their trades) don't you understand?

[quote]All I'm saying is that before you badmouth anything, take the time to do the research.[quote]

And we respectfully ask the same of you eifs, - - you'll feel much better about yourself.

[Tom R]

I may not have a clue about how hicks do things in your neck of the woods, but what I do know is that you are totally rediculous. Who the heck made you the great guru of construction. You are the one who is clueless. I respectfully request that you read a book or two.

Eifs, - - these statements are just too incredulous to even respond to, - - all I can say is why don't you re-read everthing from the beginning (twice), and think about it (from both sides, - - non-impulsively) and then get back to us. Thanks Eifs.

[Rich]

Well said Tom - and much more diplomatic than I. I'll have to try and work on that :)

EIFS - you have no idea what I know or don't know - that's true. I'm not going to go on about how much I do or don't know either. I'm pretty confident in my abilities and knowledge in construction. You should take Tom's advice though and go back and read what you've written as the comments you've made would be almost laughable excepting that you are very serious about it.

I realize that mistakes have been made in the installation methods of EIFS - by who? It could be anyone. What I'm saying is that the manufacturers put out specifications for a reason.. I as a service to my client must follow them. If I do not then I am liable for a faulty installation and they have no recourse whatsoever if it fails. If I install as the manufacturer states then the owner has a place to go if a problem should arise. That's where my insinuation of you not knowing the true workings of construction stems from.

[Tom R]

[quote="Rich"]Well said Tom - and much more diplomatic than I. I'll have to try and work on that :)

Thanks, Rich, - - of course, - - it's much easier for me to be diplomatic because he seems to be targeting you.

[eifs]

Apparently the good ole boy network is alive and well in this forum.
Why don't you guys do some research on what I've stated. All you have to do is google it. I quite frankly, couldn't care less if you agree or disagree with my viewpoint because it is obvious to me that you have an agenda.

I can not believe how arrogant some of you are. You say that my points are laughable, but I must tell you that substituting common sense with a code book is pretty stupid.

Just as I mentioned in my earlier post, builders are constantly passing the buck as you did in your reference to mistakes in the installation. What about the mistakes made by the manufacturers and the builders that allowed this problem to escalate to pandemic proportions. For example, remember the spec that said it is perfectly OK to glue foam onto wood. That one is a doosey.

Yeah this is really hilarious.

Come to think of it, the only winners in this scenario are the lawyers. They are laughing all the way to the bank.

You say that you do everything by the book so that the poor little homeowners can have someone to sue when their homes fall apart. That is classic. You really are a genius. Your theory sure worked for homeowners here on the east coast. It worked so well in fact that NC banned EIFS in residential construction.

90% of my work is fixing EIFS and moisture problems associated with shoddy construction, and judging from your reply's to my post, my future looks bright.

[bkrahmer]

Somebody should tell EIFS to install a lock on his bedroom door. That way he won't wake up with a stick in his ass every day. Like EPMD said, "Chill."

According to EIMA, the EIFS Industry Members Association, "In cases where homes have been damaged, the problems have been traced to the use of poor quality (even leaky and/or non code-compliant) windows and/or improper flashing and sealing"

Considering that fact, and the fact that the climate is CO is hella dry, I believe Rich is right in his element.

[Rich]

LMFAO - this is your first post and you blame all eifs installation failures on GC's - and you say I have an agenda?

I suppose you think the NAHB has an agenda of protecting the GC also? In their articles they have a listing of recommendations. On there it clearly puts the onus back on the installer to perform an inspection and inform the GC of any dificiencies. They also recommend to follow the manufacturers recommendations. Why you would not follow manufacturers recommendations is beyond me.

eifs.com shows several recommended installation details - and what do you know - adhesively attached to sheathing, mechanically adhered to sheathing, etc. And low and behold "Common EIFS Substrates include concrete, brick, block ("cinder block"), gypsum sheathing, oriented strand board ("OSB") and plywood." I suppose they have a hidden agenda also?

I tell you what - clean up your own backyard before you get shot in someone elses. If you have an issue with the manufacturers and installation recommendations don't blame me.. quit whining and do something about it.

[eifs]

Wow, now this is interesting, BKReamer has a wierd fixation with sodomy, and Rich says " I tell you what - clean up your own backyard before you get shot in someone elses. " I'll say this and I'll be finish with you yahoos. EIFS does not belong on wood! Period. I don't care what the specs say.

And as far as for BKRahmer, what does the BK stand for Butt Kisser?
You people don't have a clue.

Robert Santana

[Tom R]

Apparently the good ole boy network is alive and well in this forum.

Yeah, - - that's it, - - contractors from all over the country, - - who never met each other, - - conspiring against little old Eifs.

There are over 2200 members on this forum, Eifs, - - find ONE that agrees with anything you say.

Oh, - - I forgot, - - it's a 'conspiracy'!! :roll:

[Dragon]

I hate stucco and think that anyone who has anything at all to do with it is retarded.

:P

[Cole]

I hate stucco and think that anyone who has anything at all to do with it is retarded.

:P

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[eifs]

You guys don't decide what to build; you're told what to build. I bet the majority of you so-called contractors couldn't build a raft if your lives depended on it. Thank god for casual labor laws huh.

So far in this forum you haven't accepted partial responsibility for when your crews screw up, you haven't offered anything constructive and yet you are compelled to post your square-headed rebuttals.

I couldn't care less if you join hands and melodically chant " eeeEEFUUuuS sssuUUCKSsss" in the middle of Times Square ( or in your case, The Market ) because it is abundantly clear that you wannabe Trumps don't have what it takes to build with integrity. You take the credit when it's good and pass the buck when in the red. I must say that I am not surprised.

[Tom R]

Eifs, - - why get in a pissin' contest with your keyboard? Relax, - - enjoy the holiday weekend.

[Dragon]

I'm told what to build?

I'd better keep you away from the builders I work for. They'll start thinking that they have input.

:lol:

Ok ok. I usually let them make a decision now and then so that they feel like they're part of the process.

:wink:

And as far as eifs goes, I've repaired some of that crap too. I wouldnt put that stuff on a dog house. It might be a great product if you live in a desert but this isnt Arizona. It promotes moisture retention which leads to rot in humid areas. I do hope that you're properly installing a drainage arrangement to help keep moisture from being trapped behind the covering.

[eifs]

Dragon,

So you have repaired some of the crap called EIFS huh.You sound like a real genius. I don't believe you know the first thing about EIFS. You haven't been listening, EIFS doesn't belong on wood. You are right that if it is applied to wood you are asking for problems. If there is no moisture barrier or drainage track and if all the other things it takes to apply a sound EIFS facade aren'ty done then yes you can have problems. Same as with roofing. I'm not disputing that. Duh.

[Dragon]

No, I don't know everything about the product, I'll grant you that. Nor do I want to. Anything that generates as many class-action lawsuits as eifs hast is best avoided.

I do wish that its use in residential construction would stop. The stuff looks tacky.

[eifs]

Dragon,

The reason for the lawsuits is because the EIFS installed in America was and is not installed as it was intended and consequently the integrity of the system is compromised. I built my home eight years ago and I initially wanted brick; but after reading one of Zig Ziglars' books ( I think it was "Closing the Sale" ) I realized that I was much like the Tupperware salesman who stored his food in zip-lock bags. If I was to convince my Builders Association that EIFS is a good product then I should have stucco on my home. And you know what? I haven't had any moisture problems. I would know if I did since inspections and repairs is what I do. And by the way, I don't charge a cent for my inspections because I feel it would be like charging for an estimate.

Not only did I install the EIFS on Durock, which back then was was unheard of and which the manufacturer recommended against, but I used vinyl siding as the main facade. Which means that there are alot of caulk joints. Well my house is still standing and I have zero moisture.

I feel that you're opinion as to its curb appeal or lack thereof is just that. As to your experience with EIFS, you don't have much; but if you are indeed a builder then you should read up on the subject so that if a owner wants the crap, as you put it, then you will be knowledgable enough to insure proper application. EIFS is not a disease, it has just been stigmatized due to ignorance on the part of the entire construction industry. From top to bottom. This is just my opinion.

[Tom R]

From the outside lookin' in, - - I agree with both of your points of view, - - Dragon's for being 'wary' of installing something that has had so many problems in the past, - - and Eifs for not having a problem installing something he's an absolute expert in, - - got to admit I would steer away from it myself for Dragon's reasons, - - sometimes the 'learning curve' for one process of construction is better left to a specialist in that process like Eifs, - - anyway, just my two cents.

Sharp house, Eifs, - - different.

A portico roof/balcony over that front porch would really do it up.

And some corner quoins the color of the siding to the right of the door goin' all the way up.

All right, all right, - - I'll shut up now. Anyway, - - damn sharp house! :wink:

[kadoka]

You need a tree in your front yard. Not to change the subject. :)

[eifs]

Thanks for the compliments on the house. I actually wanted a tree in the front yard but after thinking about it I'm leaning towards a circular driveway.

[giddonah]

I'm leaning towards a circular driveway.

With a tree in the middle of it? :wink:

[rabadger]

BOY AM I GLAD I READ ALL OF THIS POST :!: Let see now how many emoticons surfaced :?:

:D :) :( :o :shock: :? 8) :lol: :x :P :oops: :cry: :evil: :twisted: :evil: :twisted: :cry: :evil: :twisted: :cry: :evil: :twisted: :roll: :cry: :wink:

Yep, just about all of them and some more than once.

Have a nice day :wink:

I vote for the tree.

[eifs]

I'm getting bids for my landscaping and I am impressed with some of the ideas the contractors have suggested, but I find the price for trees and the labor required to plant them is pretty expensive. I'm looking into getting some stones from Blacksburg Va. at a really good price and making a small pond/fountain type of thingy in the middle of the curved driveway. The total cost for the fountain (material) is $175.00. The total cost for the driveway, $2,900.00.(labor and material)

I want the exposed agregate for the driveway, and my concrete guy says it will cost another $450.00. What does concrete cost per cube in your neck of the woods.

[rabadger]

I have no idea. I am not into concrete.

[HDNord]

I want the exposed agregate for the driveway, and my concrete guy says it will cost another $450.00. What does concrete cost per cube in your neck of the woods.Just got a quote for flatwork of $80 per yd for 6 bag concrete. The concrete they used on the foundation last week, 5 bag, was $72.

[Rich]

I can get a company cost of 62/cy.

[Tom R]

It's about $70/yd out my way.

[Sweep]

Skip the tree; a circular driveway would complete the look of your house perfectly, but I don't think there's a plastic paving material on the market yet; I could be wrong about that; try the internet.

[stuccoman]

eifs, You know as well as I do. When the stuccoman/EIFs contractors show up on the jobsite, everthing is always just the way it needs to be.

The carpenters have installed the windows/housewraps/and flashings just perfect.The roofers have flashed everything along with kickout diverters. The city codes inspectors have inspected things such as the 1/8 inch spaceing in the OSB,the nailing of the sheathing and all is well.

With that said it must be the stucco and EIFs installers makeing all these houses rot away.

[stuccoman]

Whos fault is this?

http://www.badstucco.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=543

[eifs]

I haven't been on here in a while, but after reading your post I felt compelled to flatly disagree with almost all of what you've said.

As far as your pics go, the facade is vinyl not EIFS and it still has moisture damage. At least that's what I gather from the pics.

[concretemasonry]

The problem is not just with the EIFS.

EIFS is more prone than traditional stucco problems because of the quality of the application. Traditional stucco has a much better track record in the U.S.

The real problem is the use of EIFS over the archaic wood frame construction that is susceptible to moisture problems.

The most common material for residential construction in the developed world is masonry. The problems seen in the U.S. are due to wood frame construction not being able to handle the moisture problems (leakage, condensation) that cause expansion, deterioration and mold.

Dick

[David]

All the EIFS failures should be blamed on the General Contractors.

15 years is a long time, I'm sure you've seen a lot. But what's the issue behind this? Shouldn't stucco installers accept some responsibility? The GC is responsible to the homeowner, but the installers are responsible to the GC.

So why is it that "All" of these failures should be "blamed" on the GC???

[concretemasonry]

For EIFS on wood frame, the first responsibility is on the person (designer, GC) specifying the materials. This is based on the proven problems and number of large number of areas where it is not even permitted over wood frame. It is fine over block and concrete.

Obviously, the stucco contractor is responsible for the proper application, which is difficult because of the system. The long term problems caused to the structure usually are attributed to the overall design/selection of materials. Commonly, faulty window installation is usually found in these problem homes. This is why some builders are subbing out the window installation to certified installers rather than doing it themselves.

Unfortunately, the high percentage (40-60%) of improperly installed windows clouds the issue often. Usually, one or two long probes following a surface scan can pinpoint the wet areas a high percentage (90%) of the time at each window or door.

Traditional 3 coat stucco does not have nearly as many problems with the stucco surface and poorly installed windows are not as big a factor because of the ability of the wall to breathe. The quickie two coat sytem is a different problem because of the wide range of quality in the installation.

Looking at exploration holes in stucco is certainly more fun than watching a water test on a window or door. It also much quicker and predictable.

[MCC]

That's A Poor Position To Take. Stucco Is A Great Industry But Not Unlike Drywall It Doesn't Take Much To Get Into It You You Have The Assholes Becoming Contractors. You Can't Blame The Gc It's The Trade Contractor's Responsibility To See His Job Is Done Right Not Just Make A Buck And That's The Bottom Line. Stucco Done Right Is A Great Finish.

[concretemasonry]

MCC -

I don't know what reply you are responding to. If it was mine, Please continue reading in detail!

First - Please learn to use the lower case button to make your submittals more readable. You do not capitalize the first letter of every word.

Second - I was not criticizing the stucco contractors that have built a great reputation using the proven traditional stucco system.

Third - In general, I was refering to the EIFS system and the lack of controls exerted by those responsible for the quality of the projects completed.

The GC is responsible for hiring subcontractors to do a job according to to specifications (his, the architect's or the manufacturer's). If the job is not done right, the GC is still responsible for the result. If there is an error in the application or incompetent contractors are hired, it is still the GC's responsibility and he cannot hide or plead ignorance since he holds himself out as qualified. Unfortunately, there are far too many GCs that only own a desk and a telephone and do not properly supervise and inspect their projects. Newer systems, such as EIFS require different details, materials, processes and greater control than the proven tradition stucco system. The practice or "if it looks good, it must be O.K." was not good enough.

In many cases, because of details or installation problems with the new systems there were problems that led to restrictions and in some cases, the ban on the system for certain purposes and certain types of structures. This has ruined the stucco business for many established quality stucco contractors that do a professional job.

The poor performance of the EIFS system has forced numerous groups to eliminate EIFS on wood and in some cases ban EIFS on public buildings. It has also hurt the use the use of traditional stucco. The effects are not limited to the region with the most problems. Proper control of GCs (those who are responsible for the suncontractors and the project) may have quickly eliminated or reduced many of the problem projects. The GCs have the ultimate responsiblity and cannot hide behind the poor work performed by those the hire.

Our area had few EIFS projects, but the national publicity has hurt many local traditional stucco contractors. Now, some municipalities that allow stucco, require inspection and approval of each and every step of the process because of the EIFS history and the unqualified subs that were not monitored by the GCs that were responsible.

If you do something new or different, you have to be more careful because you are increasing your liability. There is never a guarantee for profits unless there is performance.

[eifs]

Concrete Masonry,

After all these years, someone finally gets it.

EIFS does not belong on wood. You know it, I know it, but do the GC's know it? I think they are just playing dumb to protect their bottom line.

[David]

#1 - CM, accepting responsibility does not mean accepting blame. It's taking ownership of something gone wrong, but does not necessarily mean it's their fault. To think that all mistakes should be blamed on the GC in a project is quite contenscious. The GC hires out many professionals to do work they can not and should not do themselves. People like surveyors, soil experts, hvac experts ... even stucco crews. In general, the GC accepts responsibility, but it doesn't mean that 100% of the mistakes on a project are his/hers. Should a GC get blamed when an HVAC expert doesn't run the calculations properly? Should a GC get blamed when a surveyor mismarks the land?


#2 - eifs said:
"EIFS does not belong on wood. You know it, I know it, but do the GC's know it? I think they are just playing dumb to protect their bottom line."

EIFS, that's a hypocritical statement. If the GC's know it, then by all means the professional installers know it. They know "it shouldn't be done" as well as the GCs know it, yet they do it just the same. So who's protecting their bottom line here?

[eifs]

I guess they're both guilty of not using their head. Everybody knows that subs bid on projects with drawings that the architect, the builder and in some cases even the owner approves.

Who are they to question their wisdom?

I know EIFS and wood don't mix.

And quite frankly, at this point, so does the entire country. Almost.

[concretemasonry]

David -

I never used the word blame, because that would be improper. I was referring to responsibility and used that term. A GC assumes certain repsonsibility according to what the contract states.

It is simply naive to assume that a person (especially a GC) always knows more than the subs. The true sub is a specialist and has to know more than generalist. If a builder contracts with unqualified subs, that is his responsiblity and he is responsible for the work done by his subs. He can blame whoever he wants, but he cannot dodge the financial bullet if he claims the sub did it wrong.

If a GC is not aware of the prohibition on the use of certain materials, products and applications, he has been living in a void.

I know of many stucco contractors that refused to even bid on a residential EIFS system over wood because they knew it was potentially a bomb (which it was proven to be) when it was specified by the builder/GC. These same subs would bid on EIFS over materials other than wood if they were specified by a professional designer.

Between the unqualified stucco "contractors" and improper window installation, thousands of homes have had severe moisture, rot and mold problems. Today, many quality builders are now subbing out window installation to certified installers or at least having their employees trained and certified.