icynene insulation question

[pi71]

How much does it cost to have this stuff sprayed in?

[bkrahmer]

Call your local people! We have talked about this before, and there is no consensus. Anywhere from $0.80 to $2.50 per ft2. That's not floor square footage either, that's applied square footage, at R-19 or so.

[pi71]

consensus? talked about it before? whoa mule... simple question = simple answer... :twisted:

[warthog]

I just had a 1000 sf of vaulted roof sprayed at 5" thick give or take a little. Cost me $2600 total and the guy had to travel an hour to the boondocks each way. Had the job done and cleaned up in less than 7 hours. This is in Alaska where spray foam is pretty common, dont know how the prices would be where youre at.

oh ya, make sure you mask off windows and cover anything you dont want hit with overspray. That stuff is near impossible to remove without alot of elbow grease.

[pi71]

how does it perform?

[warthog]

Roughly R7 per inch. We had 2" of blueboard and 5" of spray foam for about R47 in a "cold roof". An added bonus is that it fills all the nooks and crannies to stop infiltration and that it stiffens up the framing pretty well too. You need to make sure if you spray it that thick that you stop short of the face of the rafters or studs to keep from screwing with your drywall. And trimming it after its cured out is a pain. It also needs to be pretty warm in the cabin before and after your spraying so it cures out and doesnt crack from contraction.

[bkrahmer]

pi71, I don't know how to parse your first reply. I will just add that it's a pet peeve of mine when someone asks how much something will cost, because unless there is someone else in the San Antonio area that has used the same product, any answer you get will be completely irrelevant. Just trying to help. Here's a simple answer: $12. :)

[pi71]

I think that is how an internet forum works. Questions and Answers. People with more experience give another advice, no matter what level it is on. Ill take you up on that $12 estimate...

[roger g]

Hmmmmmmm. I think how these forums work is that you ask a question and you HOPE for an answer. If I have answered something a few times I don't always answer again.. Forums are for everyones interst and I am interested in answering sometimes. Sometimes I'm not interested in answering hoping that someone else is.
Pull in your horns Tex. We are all doing the best we can. Maybe go back and read all the back issues.


Roger

[pi71]

thats funny eh....

[danh]

Roughly R7 per inch. We had 2" of blueboard and 5" of spray foam for about R47 in a "cold roof".
I didn't know they could do R-7 per inch. Is that a new product line?

[warthog]

link to a website: http://www.fomofoam.com/faq.htm

[danh]

link to a website: http://www.fomofoam.com/faq.htm
Wow; the Icynene website has really gone downhill since the last time I saw it :wink:

Are all these things the same? Or do I have to worry about which brand I'm getting?

[bkrahmer]

They're not the same thing. Good catch. Icynene is 'only' about 3.6 per inch. IIRC, actual icynene should be cheaper than that stuff.

[warthog]

My mistake the R7 foam actually has isocyanate in it and I mistook to be the same as the icynene product. What is the advantage of the icynene? Better fire resistance? Cheaper? If the R value isnt there, there must be some other advantage...

[N2Deep]

Remember that is "true" R value- Not like batts that are rated at say R19 but you may only get 15 or 12 due to how much it is compressed in the wall or how well it seals the cavity.
Still have to remember that your biggest loss of energy in a home is through the windows/doors. So if you use foam insulation then upgrade your windows and doors otherwise it's just a waste.

It cost me 10K to insulate the entire house w/Icynene. 2X6 exterior walls and backside of roof deck (sealed attic) 3000sqft Not sure what the price was per linear foot. Also sprayed around bathrooms and kitchen for soundproofing. That may give you an idea for a complete house.

[pi71]

how much of a difference did you notice when you went with icynene?

[danh]

Remember that is "true" R value- Not like batts that are rated at say R19 but you may only get 15 or 12 due to how much it is compressed in the wall or how well it seals the cavity.

I hate to tell you this, but insulation manufacturers don't really mistate their R-Value numbers. There's really no such thing as "true" or "effective" R-Value - what it says on the package is what you get. What really matters is how much effort goes into building well.

If you take a piece of fiberglass batt, foam board, cotton batt, or icynene into the middle of a field on a cold winter day, they will all have the exact same R-Value as their manufacturers say they do. But none of them will keep you warm. There are just other factors involved.

[N2Deep]

Taking a piece into an open field to test R-Value is not a real life situation- so kind of hard to compare like that. If you look at batts when installed- which I see a lot not installed correctly - allow air infiltration. This will reduce the effective R-Value- it doesn't change the actual R-Value of the piece of material just your insulating factor. With a product like icynene it seals that cavity completely and reduces air infiltration and increases efficency. Batts work well IF installed correctly!! And a lot less expensive.
Remember your windows and doors are where it really counts!! Check R-values of those and they don't compare to any type of insulation.

[danh]

Taking a piece into an open field to test R-Value is not a real life situation- so kind of hard to compare like that. If you look at batts when installed- which I see a lot not installed correctly - allow air infiltration. This will reduce the effective R-Value- it doesn't change the actual R-Value of the piece of material just your insulating factor. With a product like icynene it seals that cavity completely and reduces air infiltration and increases efficency. Batts work well IF installed correctly!! And a lot less expensive.

This is well-intentioned, but it won't help people build better. All it will do is put more dependence on products like Icynene. But it is possible to build houses with fiberglass or cellulose and have them perform as well as a house insulated with Icynene: R-2000 houses, for example. It's just ridiculously expensive to build that way :)

So let's clear things up.
1. No R-Value testing is performed under real life situations.

2. Air infiltration does not change R-Value. It does change how a building burns energy, but R-Value never changes.

3. There is no such thing as "effective" R-Value. If there was, it would be a combination of how a material works based as an insulation, an air barrier, and as a radiant barrier.

AND effective R-Value would change based on time of day changes in humidity (the amount of energy carried in air leakage changes with changing humidity). But then we would have to talk about the "range" of effective R-Values, and they'd be different for each city (climate), and this really wouldn't be useful.

SO instead of talking about this unquantifiable "effective" R-Value, think in terms of 2 REAL components - things that people can actually measure: R-Value, and ACH number (air changes per hour).

4. Insulation does exactly what it's supposed to do. It supplies R-Value. But R-Value has not now nor has it ever been the determining factor in how energy efficient a home is.

5. All insulation manufacturers require that the building be properly air sealed in order to get the best performance out of their insulation. Only R-2000 builders actually follow those recommendations. For everyone else - the only time your insulation will perform to its rated R-Value is on days with no wind and no stack effect. So never.

[GreenBuilder007]

Well actually, Icynene's becoming more and more expensive, since oil prices are climbing. This is because a large percentage of Icynene's product is made from oil->hence where their polyurethanes come from. A good subsititute for Icyene's product, which performs just as well (if not better), is BioBased Systems product, BioBased 501. Your prices are going to vary (from contractor to contractor), but they are most often cheaper than Icynene's; plus its good for the enivornment, since their polyurethanes comes from Soy-Oil instead of petroleum.

[danh]

Well actually, Icynene's becoming more and more expensive, since oil prices are climbing. This is because a large percentage of Icynene's product is made from oil->hence where their polyurethanes come from. A good subsititute for Icyene's product, which performs just as well (if not better), is BioBased Systems product, BioBased 501. Your prices are going to vary (from contractor to contractor), but they are most often cheaper than Icynene's; plus its good for the enivornment, since their polyurethanes comes from Soy-Oil instead of petroleum.
I heard that the soy-based foam plastics are still largely petroleum based as well.

What I can't wait for are the cornsugar-based plastics.

[davidbach]

I inquired on the Biobased 501 after reading this forum. The person called me back said he also does icynene and although petroleum based products are going up, soy biobased 501 is about 30% more :(

[GreenBuilder007]

david,

Which dealer did you ask? The dealer in our area sells his biobased foam cheaper than Icynene. BioBased may be 30% more than fiberglass, but definitly not other foams.

[danh]

GreenBuild - isn't the main plant in Rogers, AR?

They probably sell it so cheap because of reduced transportation costs.

[GreenBuilder007]

No, actually I asked the guys that work there, and they said that the product is not 30% more than Icynene. Now, I belive it is up to the dealer to set pricing, so it does vary, but not to the extent of 30%.

[danh]

So apparently Miso is actually fermented soy bean paste. I saw that on the cooking network last night.

So is it really soy-based foam? Or is it miso-based foam?

[GreenBuilder007]

It's soybean based. It uses the oil's that come from soy-beans as a replacement for petroleum. The end product is almost identical to other spray-foam insulations.