estimate much lower than cost

[ilhga]

We hired a company to build a 428 sq. ft. master bedroom suite. We're not sure why, but his costs were much higher than his estimates. For instance, estimate for carpet was $600 and cost was $1200. The marble for the bathroom was estimated at $2300 and cost $4700. When I went to pick out the carpet, he wouldn't even tell me what price range would be considered standard. He said he had profit in there and wouldn't tell me. He just said the guys would show me what I could choose from. Then, he has a charge on his bill for increase in cost of materials. It was $2575. He won't show me any papers showing that prices really increased that much. In fact, he won't show me the invoice for the carpet or marble either. We also bought a lot of things ourselves, vanity, faucets, light fixtures, etc. and he won't give us anything showing where we got credit for them. We don't know what to think as this is our first time dealing with a contractor. Aren't they supposed to give a detailed breakdown of costs - and all invoices?

[Cole]

Yes, they are.

Where are you from and far along is he?

[Tom R]

I'm not so sure I'm exactly understanding your situation, - - but I give 'allowances' all the time, - - let's say for instance, - - I give a $200 allowance for a toilet, - - if you pick one that costs $300, - - you owe me an extra hundred, - - if you pick one for $100, - - I 'knock off' $100 of the total contract price. It's simply a way of being able to give you a contract price, - - when you haven't yet decided on an exact material list. But granted, - - I put everything on paper for you to begin with. I try to give 'realistic' allowances so the customer will be getting a fair idea of what the project is actually going to cost, - - but if they go and pick an $850 toilet without giving me a 'heads-up' (pun intended) :lol: , - - I can't control their costs going up.

[ilhga]

I'm from GA. They're finished, but I had to call a plumber because they tried 4 - 5 times and couldn't fix the leaks. I know he won't pay the plumber's bill and he won't return my fence posts so I can put the fence back up. And he broke the glass in my front door when he got mad and slammed it. He got mad because I didn't want his men to try to fix the leaks again. And I had hired a lawyer when he came to my house and insisted I make the final payment - even when they weren''t finished. The job was supposed to take 8 - 12 weeks. It took 20. All of this started before Christmas.
Tom R. , that's the way it should have been. I really can't understand what's going on with this builder. He knew the square footage, yet was way off on the estimate for the carpet. And I couldn't understand him not telling me how much the allowance was. I think a lot of it is his poor management, but also, he's trying to take profit off the estimate and also the materials. I think I've been overcharged about $5000. I'll probably need to file a small claims case against him.

[Tom R]

Sounds like he's playing the dumb act, - - yet he's got it figured so all the numbers (conveniently) work in his favor, - - good luck, and keep us posted.

[dhill]

What is so aggravating here is that you're going to be out a lot of time and energy putting together fair market prices and legitimate estimate costs so that you can represent your case in court. I can't imagine a gc who wouldn't disclose costs figures up front and show invoices at billing time. I wish you'd run the figures by the experts on this forum before you started. In the gc's defense, building prices have changed dramatically, but if he's up front with the costs' sheets then that shouldn't matter. You'd at least see where he was spending the money for your project. Being overcharged even $1 is wrong, $5k is outrageous.

[VALENT]

Was his estimate in any way guaranteed? I cant figure this situation. Normally, an estimate given by a professional is a pretty good "estimate" and should be what the total charge is unless something unforeseen happens and even this is usually laid out in the contract.

[ilhga]

I was hoping I could avoid having to go to court, but I guess not. On Monday, the 16th , I called the office and told them I was going to hire a plumber and send them the bill. If they had just paid it I could have been done with all of this. Instead, they sent workers to my house. The foreman came in and I told him I just wanted to call a plumber, but they came in and worked all day anyway. I had to leave and when I came home, I checked everything and there were still two leaks. I called a plumber and he fixed everything in less than 30 min. The bill was $132.00.

Now I’m working on figuring out costs. The final bill showed - and this was all I got:
Contract amount -- $39,920.00
Change order 1 -- add 44 sf (I wanted to add 2 ft.) --- $2,420.00
Change order 2 -- frame new door header (they installed a new front door and found some rotten wood)
--- $850.00
Change order 3 -- flashing and vent ridge ( a storm blew the metal strip off of the old roof) --$75.00
The allowance $2,300 vs. Marble Masters invoice for $4,706.64 -- $2,406.64
Additional market fluctuated material cost -- $2,575.28
TOTAL -- $8,633.57

The gc refused to show the attorney how he came up with the $2,575 and says he doesn’t have to unless it goes to court (he’s in for a surprise!). The gc also said he had the legal right to go up 15%. These figures don’t show credit for the things we bought or the $600 allowance we were supposed to get for a whirlpool tub. The gc says there’s nothing in the paper work about the $600 and we did get credit because he didn’t include the prices of the things we bought in figuring up his bill.

To answer your question, his estimate isn’t guaranteed. The contract says, “This amount constitutes a reasonable accounting but not exact cost to perform work stated. Any alterations from original quote involving further expense is not covered under this price and shall be added to total upon completion of work.” He kind of gives himself freedom to charge whatever he wants.

One question, does the 15% include upgrades and change orders?
There’s so much to say, but this post is getting too long so I’ll come back later with an update. Thanks!

[VALENT]

From your first post, I certainly didnt expect a contract amount of 39000$. Looking through your final post it doesn't seem there is too much additional based on what he initially said and quoted and what you ended up being charged. I do think he should pay your plumbers bill based on what you have said but I dont think his other charges are incorrect. That additional 44 square foot came in at $55 per sq ft which is certainly not bad and the door header is a definite unforeseen but necessary charge.

[ilhga]

You're right. The figures don't seem out of line. The estimate was about equal to another I had gotten and even the extra $2,575 seemed ok. My attorney saw something wrong. I contacted him after the gc told me I had to pay him the final payment (minus $1000) when my crawlspace was still flooded because the worker that couldn't put the cover on the shower drain on correctly was the same one that did the entire plumbing. They aren't licensed plumbers. He pays his workers $9.00 hr. and no benefits. This worker - the crew leader - made a mistake and put the rings too far away. That was Ok, everybody makes mistakes, but when I told them - after a month of them trying to fix all the leaks - that I wanted to hire a plumber and just send them the bill, they came in and worked all day anyway. This was the 5th time they had worked on the plumbing problems. There were still leaks so I hired a plumber and didn't tell them.

I'm not sure what to think about the money part. I just know I lost trust in my gc right from the start. He has always been dishonest from the start. He had his own company do the termite pretreatment without telling me. When I told him I was then going to have to pay my company $400 to treat it again so that it could be included in my contract, he said he didn't know people even had termite contracts and that my co. must be trying to rip me off. I called his references, found one that had an addition done and he told me he had his own company do the pretreatment because he had a contract - so my gc lied to me. I still don't understand why. Then, during the final walkthrough, my gc made fun of me for being picky. I had told him the vanity lights were too low for the mirrors to fit well and he got out his measuring tape and told me they were exactly 6 ft. 6 in. from the floor and that was standard. They had forgotten to put the handsprayer on the tub and he said that it was a complicated job and he would have to charge me $200 in labor. I had asked him earlier how much it would be to put shutters on the windows and he said $150 per window.
Also, during the walkthrough, I told him there was a nickel size gap underneath the french doors ( you can see outside), he told me all doors have gaps under them. I found out that they were supposed to have weather tabs, but he won't order them for me anyway. I also showed him how bad the seams were in the carpet - the expense would have been too much, so I didn't ask him to repair it. But, he told me that was as good as it got and that all carpets have seams showing. I guess he thought I was born yesterday. He also told me he wouldn't put he chain link fence back up and that's ok, but I found out my 4 corner posts are gone. I asked for them back, but never got them. He did agree to fix the vanity cabinet doors when they fell off in his hands. The workers tightened the screws up and they fell off again.
I had hired a home inspector (he said I wasn't picky at all). He was scheduled to come out and recheck everything and my gc was allowed to be present - otherwise he wasn't to have any contact with me ( I was following the attorney's directions, but gc wasn't, he called one time to tell me I had 48 hrs. to pay him). The doorbell rang and I answered it. I wish I had looked first. It was the gc. I invited him in and told him he was welcome to watch TV while we waited for the inspector. I stayed at my computer and hoped he wouldn’t talk to me. He did - he walked to the bathroom and asked why I hadn’t had the marble people out to put on the tub skirt. I told him there was still a small leak. He was mad and asked why I hadn’t told him. He also asked why I didn’t want his men to fix it and I said that they just weren’t able to. He stormed out of my house and slammed the door, cracking the glass. The crew leader told me that the gc wanted him to lie to me and say the wind must have caused it to slam.
This is a company that has always done handyman type of work and just now trying to branch out into additions and new construction. I think he just doesn't know how to treat people - nor how to make an honest profit. And they didn't have the experience to do this job.
One thing that's strange. When I went to pick out the carpet, I was supposed to be choosing "standard" grade. The salesman said it was $6.99. Later I was told I was billed $11.99. I just wish he would show me the invoices.

[Dragon]

Now you know why I dont do estimates, especially on remodels.

[giddonah]

Can we get a name yet? I read all these horror stories and have no name to curse. :?

[VALENT]

Well , as long as your lawyer doesn't cost you more than what you can possibly recoup. It sounds like he made some errors but this was a big job and you may just have to chalk it up to experience. And you can always talk bad about him--first to his face and then to others if he doesnt want to make things reasonably right for both of you.

[Cole]

Both of your signatures,lol.

[giddonah]

I tried to tell VALENT to edit it.

Add a [ at the beginning and remove the \ at the end.

[VALENT]

I tried it again.

[ilhga]

I just got my bill from the attorney. It's $940 - every phone call cost money - and a few hundred of it was for Jerry to rant and rave at the attorney over the phone. I wonder if it's possible to recover that expense in small claims court since I only hired an attorney because Jerry broke his contract by insisting on the final payment before it was due. Probably not, but I'll include it and let the judge decide. Maybe he'll have to hire a lawyer then I can have looooong conversations with his attorney!

[VALENT]

sometimes you have to walk away. "Don't throw good money after bad money."

[Cole]

Valent, makes a good point.

[VALENT]

So I say you make an excellent point and you say I make a "good" point. Forget it, I'm leaving, see you later.

[Cole]

Valent, you make a great point!!!

[VALENT]

I was just kidding. I couldn't leave if I wanted to.

[Cole]

Im the same way.^^