Condensation

[Geemoney]

I live in hot and humid Texas.
My house is a 2 story approx 3006 sq feet. in a single zone.
There is condensation forming on the ceiling vents for the A/C on the upper floor and on the exterior of the furnace.
The warranty guy says this is normal.
What could be causing this?
With the hot air rising in the house could this cause the air to condense on the vents -should I get a second a/c unit and add another zone to balance the temperature in the house?
What about having the fan "on" all the time with the a/c or will that increase the humidity in the house?

Thanx for your help.

"G"

[VALENT]

I live over here near Houston and the condensation on the "furnace" is relatively common because of its placement in the attic(amidst the heat and humidity). But the condensation on the vents is odd because they should be exposed only to "conditioned" air with less humidity.

[Geemoney]

That is my concern as there is already mold appearing on 2 vents and the house is not 1 year old. (the mold will be removed under waranty -but that doesnt address the root problem)

The "furnace" is in a "closet" not the attic.

Any insight is appreciated.

Thanx

"G"

[roger g]

Could be something as simple as slowing down the fan speed. Air conditioning is not JUST cooling it is CONDITIONING at the same time. The air must go across the coils at a speed where the water in the air condenses and drains away. If the air is too fast the air doesn't have time to condense properly across the coils. You want cool DRY air NOt cool damp air.
Then again it might be another problem.


roger

[Sparks]

Sounds like some kind of an insulation issue with the duct. Somehow, maybe, hot attic air is coming in contact with cool conditioned air. How well sealed is the supply register to the attic and to the duct. Maybe there is infiltration creating condensation. OR maybe it is what Roger mentioned and the water is being blown through the ductwork from a fan speed issue. I think you should press the issue because I wouldn't consider this acceptable, sure condensation happens, but your register shouldn't be dripping or growing mold.

[rabadger]

There are so many things that can cause it. I don't know where to start.

wrong air volume
ducts
equipment size
to much temp drop
water blow off

By any chance have you noticed if the unit is freezing up. Any evidence of ice?

[kvo]

http://www.bioair.ru/engl/another/a_vent.php

[Geemoney]

I do not see any ice on the coil.
The builder is having an outside firm evaluate and clean (how efficient is that?) the mold prior to addressing the root cause (which he does not know)

"G"

[rabadger]

You say builder, mold? Is this a new home? What size AC is it. Is it variable speed equipment, and how many supply registers do you have.

[Geemoney]

This is a brand new home (coming up on 1 year) by a national chain.
When I say builder, I mean the warranty guy.
The outdoor unit is 5 tons. carrier
The indoor unit specs I dont know-the model number is FK4DNB006
it is central air/heat unit.
The outdoor unit model is 38BYC060340

The furnace is an upright unit with the coil on the bottom, air intake on the bottom -output on the top..
I will count the registers tonight.

The condensation on the furnace was present last september when we closed and has returned with the warm weather. It is not a new problem, but has been there since day one.
The drain appears to be clean and flows water.

Sorry for the lack of information I am a noob when it comes to AC.

Your insight is greatly appreciated.
Thanx

"G"

[rabadger]

I think you have an HVAC system design problem.

[Geemoney]

Unfortunately an expert consultant like yourself is located in Indiana.

I dont really trust the builder at this point.

Is the unit undersize?

Would a local Carrier dealer be able to help me?

Your input is appreciated.

Thanx

"G"

[rabadger]

I can't give you any advice without seeing prints, running load calculations, and reviewing the equipment specifications. Experience tells me that the unit could be oversized, ductwork undersized, and if the moisture is coming off the A coil the air velocity could be to high.

Remember I state "could be". I really don't want to get into a legal thing with the builder, and HVAC contractor. I'm just tring to help you solve the problem.

Is this a furnace and air conditioner or a heat pump with air handler and electric heating in the air handler?

[Geemoney]

I really don't want to get into a legal thing with the builder, and HVAC contractor. I'm just tring to help you solve the problem.

I fully understand your position.
I am working from an information deficit here and any information I can gather will prevent the wool from being pulled over my eyes.
At the begining I was told the condensation was because the house was empty wtih no curtains and alot of people entering and leaving the house.
I was skeptical of this explanation but I am not the technicain/expert.
After we moved in the temps got cooler and the problem "went away"
Here we are again -begining of summer, temps in the 90's and I have the condensation problem again.
Fool me once, shame on .....

I believe the setup I have is (common in south central texas) a heat pump/air conditioner and an electric coil for emergency heat.

Here is an online pic
http://www.carrierresidential.com/CarrierAlliance/FK4.html

The load calculations would have been done in the original design and the specs for the unit itself would have been supplied to the AC contractor?
I would assume (leap of faith) that the contractor would follow this?
There is an identical house with supposedly the same setup down the street that doesnt have this problem. Should I compair model numbers?

When I check the carrier website for authorized dealers in my area this contractor is not listed. Should this raise a red flag or because he does new homes he wouldnt be listed?
Would a carrier authorized repair guy (other than the builders contractor)verify my unit is working correctly under the original manufactures warranty?
Sorry for the long questions. I am just trying to verify my setup without stepping on too many toes.
I appreciate your input.

"G"

[giddonah]

I've been starting to join a friend of mine on some HVAC work. He'd much rather just do the installs, but since he's just starting back up with this company, they have him doing service calls and fixing unfinished installs. I think I have a greater appreciation for rabager's knee-jerk reaction to asking if the HVAC has been considered. I've been on a few calls with him and they really can screw it up. All it takes is a little bad planning and some underpaid installers to start thinking it's not their house.

If you provided everything rabager has said, then he might be able to help furthur. Having the same exact setup down the street could mean anything. There are many factors that go into the health of a system like this, and it takes more than a person who can just run the ducting from one place to another. Is this flex-duct? Can you physically check the whole system? (I doubt it, most of it is behind drywall I imagine)

Solving this over the internet isn't going to be easy (and may not even be possible).

[rabadger]

Please let us know how it turns out.

[rabadger]

So, what happened with the condensation problem so far?

[Geemoney]

Thanx again to everyone for their input!

Sorry for the delayed response but there wasnt anything going on till last week.

The consensus of the local HVAC technician and builder waranty guy is that the "buckets" (air registers) and furnace closet are not sealed well from attic air. Overspray of texture into the "buckets" is contributing to the problem.

Here is what is going on at the house at the moment:

The state (Texas) mandated mold remediation protocol is being followed.

A guy (EPA) came out and took samples of the air and mold from the house. Took temperature and humidity readings.

His findings were that Cladasporium was present in elevated concentrations than the outside air.
The humidity in the house was 48 to 50 %.
Temperature difference between upstairs and down was 3 deg.
Recomendations:
All contaminated "buckets" (supply air registers) 11 total (of a house with 17) are to be sealed 8 to 10 inches arround and removed with sheetrock.
The OSB supporting the furnace and adjacent wall to the furnace is wet/contaminated and needs to be removed.

Per the EPA's engineers findings -the A/C system needs to be balanced.

After all the recomendations are completed the house will be retested and pending safe results -given a pass.

As of today (hottest days of the summer yet -pushing 100) we are in a hotel for approximately 1 week while the A/C has been turned off and the destruction/construction is completed.

There doesnt appear to be mold in the furnace.
The coils were clean. (but were sprayed with a cleaning solution anyway)
There doesnt appear to be condensation inside the ducts in the furnace.
Two different A/C repair technicians have looked over the unit and found it working fine. Freon level OK.
I have yet to see any load calculations.

Sorry for being long winded -alot is happening over the last couple of days.

If the leaky "buckets" can cause a moisture/mold problem what about leaky light fixtures or wall outlets?
It is not in the city code to seal the "buckets" with tape, but without it can cause such a problem -is it a money issue that it is not done?

Could this solution be the end of my problem or just another builder bandaid?

Thanx muchly

"G"

[rabadger]

Don't know. Never heard the term of leaky buckets. I understand that they are talking about the register boots but the air has to be leaking from the inside of the duct out. That part of the system is the supply side and under positive pressure.

[Geemoney]

As you allready knew -none of the changes the builder has done to date has fixed the problem -humidity. The A/C contractor has furnished the "J" calculations showing the need for a 4.1 Ton unit and has supplied a 5 ton.
Yesterday the Carrier area reps came by with 4 guys from the A/C contractor and their owner. Their adjustment was to increase the fan speed to 2000 cfm to reduce the air temp at the registers (it reduced the furnace output temp by 3 deg). The house may be crossing the "dew" point as it is operating beyond the 25 deg spilt in the calculations. They had supplied a humidistat last week to try to reduce the humidity in the house but they disconnected the dehumidify fuction yesterday also.
After taking a bunch of humidy (wet bulb) and temp measurements they are supposed to get back to me with a graph of the "dew" point and an explantion as to why it is raining in my house.
P.S. The builder was not forthright with the results of the mold report.
We have found that there is elevated airborn levels of Aspergillus/Penicillium in 2 locations in the house. With my spouse being immune system comprimised we are looking to get out of this house as soon as possible.

[rabadger]

Sorry to hear it. I don't blame you for dumping the place.

I would have left the 5 ton coil, changed the metering device and put a 4 ton condensing unit in.
The unit needs to run long enough to lower the humidity.

How was the unit working in the heat wave?

Mine started about about 8:00 AM ran until about 10:00PM then cycled on and off a few times during the night. Was able to hold an average temp on all three zones of 78 degrees. After the sun set I adjusted the thermostats so all the air was devirted to the 3rd zone (bedrooms) then readjusted them when I went to bed. Worked great.

Aspergillus/Penicillium? Did they say where it comes from or what causes it to grow?

Are they going to buy the house back?

If you need someone to help you with the HVAC on your next place give me a call.

[rabadger]

What kind of construction is it?

2x4 or 2X6 exterior walls.
Standard double pane windows or low-e with argon gas.
R-30 in the attic or R-38?

[Geemoney]

I appoligize for the delayed response.

2 x 4 exterior walls

R30 insulation in the attic
R13 in the walls

Low E windows

In the heat the unit was running alot, but not continuously.

When the factory reps came out they said they increased the fan speed.( I believe they said to 2000 cfm) but in their "J" calculations they specify 2000 cfm. Was the fan speed set wrong from the begining? Or have they increased it above 2000 cfm?

I have not heard from the factory reps or A/C contractors since they took their wet bulb measurements and said they would "get back to me"

With the increased fan speed the condensation on the vents has been reduced. The humdistat has not shown an increase in humidity beyond 51%

We also increased the thermostat setting to 72 degrees -but that is still operating beyond the designed 25 deg split. ( we need a cool house because of my wifes health issues )

The builder has refused to buy the house back -we'll see what they say when the lawyer asks.

I was told that the mold likes cellulose in drywall and texture overspray as a food source and requires a moisture source to grow.
Cladosporum is a common mold non toxic present in the enviorment. It is an alergen and can be bothersome to some people and those that are immune system comprimised.
Aspergillus/penicilium is somewhat common and is toxic (some specie more than others) can be bothersome to some people and those that are immune system comprimised.

I appoligize for this long winded post.

Thanx for your help.

[rabadger]

Geemoney,

Anything new?

[Geemoney]

There is mold forming arround a light fixture on the upper floor now, there is still condensation forming arround some grills ( not as much after speeding up the fan ). The furnace itself doesnt appear to be sweating as it used to.
In this tripple digit heat of late the unit runs often, but not 100% of the time. the relative humidity inside has been arround 50% maintaining 72-73 degrees.
Their HVAC guy said they do the "J" calculations with the house orientated to the worst possible position (not necesarily to my orientation) and in my case the house is a mirror image (opposite hand) Does this (the mirror image) affect the calcuations?
We had another mold specialist come in and test the house -there is still elevated levels of mold in the house and he is coming to retest.
The HVAC contractor (they havnt responded to us since their visit 5 weeks ago) will be coming to the house Wed, along with the builder and our lawyer.

I'll let you know how this works out.

(in the end the only person that really wins is the lawyer)

[rabadger]

You can take the same home, do load calculations for every direction N,S,E,W, NW, SW, etc. and come up with a diferent requirement every time.

Yes mirror image does make a diference. The CFM requirement for each room changes.

[giddonah]

I find it odd that the system doesn't run 100% in extreme heat. Rich, would you think that this is a sign that the system is oversized?

[rabadger]

Big time. I wish I could get a set of prints on this place.

[ODDJOB]

Oversized, possibly, that would account for the high humidity, mold and some of your other woe's

[rabadger]

Geemoney, When they come to the house tell them you want the system external static pressure measured.

[Zatol]

Didn't you back out of the first house that you were having built for some perceived problems?? Now, you have found problems with the one that you purchased... You keep mentioning your 'lawyer'... implying that he will get the answers, results... I bet that you have been more than accomodating in trying to solve this 'problem'. Maybe, you are just wanting to back out of yet another deal... Good luck. I hope you get what you are entitled to.

[Geemoney]

Well, Zytol, Yes I did back out of my first house, not because of perceived problems but because there were "REAL" problems with that house. Both structurally and otherwise and I have all the pictures to show. (I perceived 13 inches of rain in the month of June ‘04 falling into the framed house with no roof. I perceived the improper support of the upper floor of the house causing the upper floor and ceiling to sag under the weight of the A/C unit.) I was able to back out of that deal because the builder knew I was right and did what was fair for me. Stuff happens, everybody knows that -but that doesn’t mean you have to live with it if it is not going to be fixed.
Hey, I wrote to this forum to get some help/insight with a problem I am having in my present home -not to receive some cheap shot comments and insinuations.
Back to the present -and up on my soapbox.
Mold is not an imaginary problem and for someone (my fiancé) with an immune deficiency disorder (lupus) it can be life threatening. For the builder to say the mold was not a problem and then we discover after that the mold that is present is toxic is just wrong. Were the people living in Hinkley CA upset -yeah; the people in Love Canal NY -yeah.

We love the neighborhood, we love the house we chose, the floor plan etc, we didn’t ask/create the problem it now has. It was probably the most desirable home/property for the view it had over the entire community. I have had more than 30K in upgrades installed after moving in. I am not trying to get out of the house for any other reason than the health and safety of my family -anyone else in my situation would do the same (or should have their head examined).
At the same time the market value of my house due to the mold issue that it now has is… "ZERO". I have a 200K mortgage on a house that will never be worth half that much due to contractors cutting corners. Is that "OK"??? Sorry, I don’t have millions of dollars to thro around and pretend that it is.
If the builder is not going to solve the problem and do the right thing when I ask nicely, then hey -business is business and don’t be upset when I take it to the next level. Because yeah, I have been very accommodating for these people but the builder is not my friend nor is he looking out for my best interest. I have had enough of their lies and insults to my intelligence; they have not been upfront and honest from the beginning as I have. I paid a builder to construct a safe living environment for me and my family and if I didn’t get one then something needs to be done about it.
If you hire a contractor to install a driveway and it washes away the first day it rains are you going to pay him for it? If you buy a Lamborghini and the windows fall out on the first warm day are you going to take it back and ask them to fix it? If the car burns to the ground and the shop replaces each individual bolt and nut but just cleans (whats left of ) the carpet, puts some Wallmart seat covers on the seats, and Armorall’s the dash and calls it good -would you be happy? These are merely rhetorical questions.

My expectations are not unreasonable, I am only asking for what is fair and that is ….what I paid for. If the problem existed before I closed on the house and I was told the problem was fixed but it wasn’t; then that is real estate fraud. If the builder is misinformed by his contractors and hides behind them; then the expression is “when you sleep with the dogs, your gonna get fleas”. The lawyer is my employee and is being paid to do a job for me –nobody else. If he doesn’t do his job, he doesn’t get paid. That’s the American way.
Straight up.

Zytol, if you have something constructive to contribute to my condensation issue -then bring it.
I know the reality of my situation and resent your assumptions. I am not “perceiving” condensation on the grills, nor am I “perceiving” the mold growing adjacent nor am I “perceiving” the elevated mold counts in the house as measured by people that have more letters after their name than I have in mine.
I expected more of a professional atmosphere in these posts –I guess I was wrong again.

Thanks for your help Roger.

Peace out!

[rabadger]

Geemoney,

Does this mean I'm not going to hear the outcome?

I still say keep the 5 ton coil and install a 4 ton high eff condensing unit.

Of course you still have to kill the mold that is already in the house and check to see if the air distribution system is correct for the system.

[rabadger]

A few more reads and this post will be over 1000.
It's a shame they don't award miles points!

Anything new?

[Geemoney]

The mold guy came and took more samples and found elevated levels of mold in the walls and crawlspace left from the first mold remediation.
The A/C contractor came out and took measurements on a cool morning late september when the cooling load was low and concluded the unit was "operating as it should" and "maintaining a temp above 71 will keep condensation from returning" and supplied a hard to read copy of a dew point chart. The "J" calculations show the unit to be close to a ton oversize. All this information, digital photos and video of the condensation and mold damage has been submitted in my case against the builder and his contractors. Hopefully justice will prevail and the builder will buy back his mold house.

[rabadger]

Geemoney,

Anything new?

[Sparks]

Ya think maybe the toxic mold might've finally got em? I hope not. Geemoney, are you there??? Hello???

[Geemoney]

Sorry for not writing but there is really not much to add. (as far as putting this problem to bed) With the arrival of winter the humidity problem is not evident; but shall rear its ugly head come April/May . As far as the builder is concerned they don’t see a problem –isn’t ignorance bliss?
I sincerely appreciate all the information Roger and some of the people here have given. I am an upfront and honest guy I just wish others in the business were too. It is the shortcuts of a few unscrupulous contractors that give the rest a bad name. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out that the unit is oversize. The calculations they provided to me show that it is. The bad part is that they are continuing to build homes with the same defect and homes in the same orientation as mine are suffering from the condensation problem as well (but hey -its not mold…. yet).

In Texas the process of the getting the builder to correct serious construction defects can be a long and drawn out process. While this is not the forum for discussing the tactics of the house builders of Texas I shall go further; The builders have set up the Texas Residential Construction Commission in an attempt to establish a bureaucracy that slows down and intimidates the homeowner while protecting the builder from high legal settlements. Court cases are settled with arbitration (a rebublican judge -no jury) and are not binding on the part of the builder. The process is long and drawn out in an attempt by the builder to get the homeowner to “give up” or cause financial hardship and then be forced to surrender. I am holding all the cards –the evidence is clearly on my side. This is not buyer’s remorse –I am not looking for a large windfall -it doesnt happen. But why should I pay +$200 K for a house that has a market value of zero due to a construction defect that they refuse to fix. I am asking them to do the right thing, and if they want to sell more houses in this area and not to have this problem go to the news media –justice will prevail.
I appoligize for venting.
I'll post again when something significant develops.
Thanks again for your help.

[rabadger]

Glad to see you are still with us.

HINT:
When I was young and wet behind the ears, I did it your way once. Lost big time. My advice to you is get the thing fixed. Go to arbitration with the proof what was wrong and how much it took to fix it. In order to move you have to fix it anyway. If you win you should have more of a down payment on a new place.

When does it go to arbitration?

[Geemoney]

The process of the TRCC (Texas Residential Construction Commission) has just finished and the next step is to take the builder to arbitration. As part of the TRCC process an independant inpsector came to the house and inspected for defects. He doesnt verify any of the calculations of the contractors -he is just a structure and code guy. He found a couple of minor things but nothing related to this problem .
Mold is not under the jurisdiction of the TRCC so they canot help me in this matter. Strictly a dog and poney show as I stated earlier. As far as the condensation goes; the house wasnt inspected in the summer when the problem is present.
We are in a holding pattern at the moment, waiting for our day at arbitration.

I'll keep you posted.

[rabadger]

Geemoney,

Anything new?

[Geemoney]

At then moment I dont have anything to add.
As far as the house goes nothing had changed since last year and hot humid days are here again -so you can figure out the rest.

I may not know everything, but I have slept at a holiday inn express.
(btw -their room was cool and no condensation issues)

[rabadger]

All you can do is wait for the date. Keep us updated. Lots of people getting an education on this one. How about checking in once a month or so? Even if it's just to say Hi! nothing new yet.

[Geemoney]

Just a quick update to let you know I'm still here.
(the mold hasnt got me yet!)
There hasnt been any changes in the situation. (nothing done -nothing changes)
The condensation has come and gone with the summer.
The wheels of justice are slow to turn but everything should be resolved by next spring.
I'll keep you posted.
Thumbs up Roger!

[rabadger]

The condensation has come and gone with the summer.


Did the mold come back also?

[energy rater La.]

I find this condensation on grill is not an uncommon issue
in my hot humid climate.

This is a remedy that has worked well for condensation at registers.

Remove ceiling register. There you will notice
a gap between the supply box (you call it bucket??)
and the sheetrock.

This is the cause of the condensation, where hot attic
air meets the cooler metal of the supply box, condensation
forms.

Sealing this gap will eliminate the source of moisture
that is suooprting the mold growth.

I use a UL 181 mastic tape, such as Hardcast mastic.

With supply register removed, pull supply box flush with
sheetrock.
Apply 1/2" of hardcast mastic tape to sheetrock,
pressing firmly to seal well.
Fold remainder of mastic tape into
supply box again pressing firmly to seal.

Reinstall register.

A/C install:
the indoor cooling coil should be installed above the central heater.
the heating system is not well insulated for this cold air
to be going through the heater, thus causing moisture on heating system.

This is my take based on what I see in the field on a regular basis.

Oh and GOOD FOR YOU that you are persuing this.
More people need to make the same type of stand and maybe one
day standards will protect the homeowners & not builders.

[David]

I feel sorry for Gee, and wish him the best of luck with the Kangaroo Court. TX is a mess for homeowners.

[energy rater La.]

Ain't just Texas David.
we need 300 code inspectors here for parishes (counties)
with NO code inspectors, never had them..ever.
And these 'new' inspectors will have to inforce the IRC
which we just adopted in jan 06, but were allowed
another year before it went into effect due to hurricanes last fall.

It is a scary time to build in La.

[rabadger]

Well, hello there energy rater LA! Glad to have you with us. :D

[energy rater La.]

thanks
great stuff here!

[jimmyc]

An apartment building I rent out had mold discovered in it. It was disturbing to think that it was found because I keep up on all of that to the smallest detail. Glad to say it was pretty easy to find someone to remove it and wasn't that expensive either.


Who said bathroom renovation (http://www.myhomeus.com) isn't exciting?

[rabadger]

Geemoney,

What's going on?