solar power anyone?

[shamban]

I am building a new home, 2200 SQFT, in Southwest Ohio (4.5 hours average sunlight a year).

We are about 3000ft from the nearest power line. Although we have not got a quote, I hear it will be very pricey to get power to us.

My wife and I love the idea of investing in solar power. The cost to get the power to us would probably go along way for solar panels.

Out biggest hurdle at this point is trying to find a single person to talk to that knows anything about solar power. It is just not that popular in this area. We have bought books, searched the internet,etc, but it would be great to have someone that has a system or installs them to speak to.

Does anyone have experience with solar power and are willing to help us with a few questions?

Thanks,

Joe

[bkrahmer]

I have also done a lot of research. I also wanted to make my house all solar, but the grid hook-up was too cheap to pass up. I'm hoping to build a shop in a couple years, and if I do, the south-facing roof will be a perfect spot for some panels. There is a great forum at http://www.fieldlines.com for all types of alternative energy. A lot of it there is wind, but you can view just solar topics, and the guys on there know their stuff. There is a local company where I live that does mainly solar installations. They are very helpful, especially if you were interested in buying some of your equipment from them. http://www.backwoodssolar.com/ Please feel free to post your questions here as well. I might be able to answer some of them.

[shamban]

Thats great, I will have to check out the website. That will probably be a great resource.

One question I have is concerning using a propane generator as a back-up. Can systems be designed with a generator in the circuit so that if the batteries run low, it will automatically kick on and fill the batteries. There are some things, like Christmas lights, that my wife really enjoys. Dec. is probably our cloudiest month. We are trying to understand that if a system can be designed with a generator back-up so that we are insured to likely never run out of juice.

Thanks,

Joe

[bkrahmer]

Absolutely. Both Trace/Xantrex and Outback (two of the best inverter companies) have generator capabilities available. IIRC, the Outback has it built in. It may be an option on some of the Xantrex. Just check the specs.

[montytx]

4.5 hours of sun light per year. Sounds like a cave.

[shamban]

BK- Thanks alot for the suggestions. I am going to check all that out. This gives me a great area to continue my research.

Oh yeah, Dallas Remodeling- Thanks for pointing out the (obvious to anyone) typo. You might consider also offering tips/suggestions with your replies. I think that is what this forum is actually designed for.

Joe

[MD_Willington]

Solar panels of any great capacity cost more per ounce than an ounce of gold.

The capacity is just not there yet in solar panels.

At this point in time the ROI is not all that high, essentially any subsidy you get from the local government, if available at all, is draining on all the local taxpayers.

I don't mean to rain on your parade, but for the time being, solar energy (panels) is a whimsical "feel good" solution to energy needs.

[giddonah]

unless your need to be off the grid outweighs your budget constraints.

[bkrahmer]

I'm sorry, but the last two posts are incorrect. The system I had priced out for my house would have been around $15k. It would result in free power for at least 25 years, minus battery changes every 10 years or so. 3000 ft of power line from my local company would cost over $20k, and I'd still have to send them a check every month. Please check your facts before posting such bias...

[giddonah]

most people don't have to have $20k in wiring done to get power. Yes, for them the cost is justified. If not, then the cost in panels doesn't make sense. Yours happens to be a special case which most people won't face.

[Sparks]

Giddonah and Md, I agree. Solar power is a way's away from being practical for the average Joe who has cheap access to utility power. Albeit a noble notion, the r.o.i is just not favorable for most people.

[bkrahmer]

Which is the point, the guy who is asking the questions probably will NOT have 'cheap access to utility power.'

Albeit a noble notion, the r.o.i is just not favorable for most people. Nobody is saying anything otherwise. However, that argument is irrelevant to this topic.

[Sparks]

Argument :?: Touchy, aren't we. Who's arguing? The topic of solar power was being discussed and that is my take on it for MOST situations. I understand there are exceptions. This is a forum where people are encouraged to give input, lighten up.

[bkrahmer]

One of the definitions of argument is "A discussion in which disagreement is expressed; a debate." I was not using the word in a negative connotation.

MD initially posted biased opinion on ROI. How can you know the ROI when you don't know: A. The person's power usage; B. The cost of electricity for the guy; C. The cost of running power lines 3000'; D. The cost of the solar system required. ??

Sparks, you then stated that "Solar power is a way's away from being practical for the average Joe who has cheap access to utility power. Albeit a noble notion, the r.o.i is just not favorable for most people." My analytical brain immediately saw that such a statement was true, but was a non sequitur and irrelevant to the poster's question.

The poster is in a predicament of having expensive access to utility power, and I want him to be able to do all the research necessary to make an informed decision as to whether a solar system will work for him or not. Simply shrugging him off and telling him that the ROI isn't there, or that it isn't practical does not inform him in any way, nor is it constructive advice.

Sparks, I'm sorry if I offended you, but I'm afraid you are the one being touchy.

[VALENT]

good post, bkrahmer. You are right that each situation is unique and what is way unusual for one person may be just what the next person needs. But, I do think that Shamban may have to give up some extras, like Christmas lights(and many other usual things), in order for solar power to work at a reasonable cost.

[Sparks]

I wasn't directing any advice at anyone , I simply stated that is wasn't practical for the average person who HAS cheap access to utility power. I understand the poster does not have cheap access. It was a general statement not directly pertaining to the posters original question, irrelevant as it was. It also was not intended to challenge the information that you had provided which I believe is what you thought. That said, how about we move on from this discussion because now I think this conversation is getting irrelevant :)

[VALENT]

good idea.

[shamban]

I appreciate all the debate. I think we have done enough research to realize a situation very similiar to BKRAHMER. It is going to be very expensive to get power to us and may even cost more than an adequate solar system.

Here is a theoratical question...Let's say we invest in a system that is rated to 300KWH per month( a major system). Let's say we have a generator tied in to the system supported by a large buried propane tank. Theoratically, could we use any amount more power than that, and rely on the generator to fill the batteries?

I believe propane is still cheaper than electricity. We have tons of room to bury the biggest tank known to man.

I am just wondering if a system like this is used, does a person remove all concerns about running out of power?

Thanks,

Joe

[bkrahmer]

Yeah, I don't see why not. However, if you are going to be expecting to use your generator consistently (like every day), I would recommend a diesel genset instead. They are more efficient, and will last a heck of a lot longer.

[Sparks]

Sounds like a very expensive but good idea given your situation. Sounds like you would have a system more reliable than the grid would provide. I remember reading about this unit once it Popular Mechanics, it was able to provide electricity, hot water and heat for the home. The waste heat from the generator was utilized for the hot water and heating system. It was pretty interesting, I think it also had multi-fuel capabilities, gas or propane. Propane is getting pretty expensive these days though, along with everything else of course.

[bkrahmer]

Sparks, I believe you are referring to something like this: www.whispertech.co.nz/whispergen/ I would love to have one of those!

[montytx]

HOw bout a windmill. I here in some states they are doing yearly payments to farmers who have them. I think it is in MN or MI. 4K per yer per mill. Lots of farmers are letting them set em up.

[TnAndy]

Oh yeah, Dallas Remodeling- Thanks for pointing out the (obvious to anyone) typo. You might consider also offering tips/suggestions with your replies. I think that is what this forum is actually designed for.

Joe

Actually, I'll stick up for Monty here......I too had to wonder about your "4.5 hours/year of sunlight"

A. You made a typo and ain't much on proofreading your own post
or
B. You really DON'T get much sunlight and were exaggerating it

How the crap are we to know ?


Monty was just poking a little fun, dude....( and get ready....here comes a suggestion ).........come back after you apply couple coats of hide thickener.



ahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa........

[bkrahmer]

How bout a windmill? While it is true that 'they' will pay you to host one of their windmills on your site, I don't think you'd want one in your back yard. They are about 300' tall, and make about as much noise as a Gulfstream in a 14mph wind. They are putting up about 20 new ones just a few miles outside of my home town in MN. At 1.8MW each, you need to have a beefy grid nearby to actually host them, though.

A small wind turbine makes an excellent addition to an alternative energy system, however. In a lot of places, when the sun isn't shining, the wind is blowing.

[TnAndy]

Theoratically, could we use any amount more power than that, and rely on the generator to fill the batteries?

I believe propane is still cheaper than electricity. We have tons of room to bury the biggest tank known to man.

Joe

Yes, that is the pupose of the backup generator......to fill the batteries when the sun ( or wind ) doesn't.

Propane is not cheaper than electricity IF you are running it thru a generator because that generator is only about 15-20% efficient, and there are other losses in the battery to inverter to final use stage......in addition to the fact the cost of the fuel in the future is a complete unknown.

Propane IS more cost effectivie if you use it directly, such as for heating, cooking, etc. ( at current fuel pricing )

Wind, if you have a decent wind site, is a cheaper source of power than solar panels, and a small windcharger ( 1-2kw ) is a good investment and a good supplement to panels.

The ideal system to me would be solar/wind with a small ( couple kw at most ) backup generator.

[Sparks]

http://www.whispertech.co.nz/whispergen/ Thanks Bkrahmer, it was something similar to this and capable of stand-alone use. Great for remote cabins or possibly an option for the original poster.

[dhill]

I just finished hooking up my solar system. I'm off grid because the cost to run electicity to my place was more than I wanted to pay. My solar system will run all of my electric needs. There are limitations. I'm using propane for all heating. It's a nice compliment to solar electricity. The biggest drawback to solar for me is the inability to run an air conditioner. Evaporative coolers work fine, but if there's humidity, the swamp cooler isn't much help.
I did a lot of research before I put my money into this system. I did a lot of price comparisons. If anyone wants any specific info, pm me or post here.
Here's a link to a website discussion forum for solar. There are many 'experts' on the site and I guarantee they know much more than I do.
http://www.wind-sun.com/forum/

[VALENT]

dusty, tell me more about your system. How much was electricity going to cost for you(via transmission lines)? Is this your full time house?

[dhill]

Hi Valent,
My system isn't huge. It's 600 watts of pv panels. I'd like to have about 1000. That seems to be a good spot for a home with average needs. I was quoted 10 to 15K to run electric to my house. I started checking into solar and figured I could install a system for less than that. At this point I have about 5K invested, and I'm confident I can manage just fine for now. I'm sure I'll add more within the next six months.
Many people who use solar in a remote off grid location use backup generators. That's not a bad idea.
I'll be living in this house full time in about 2 weeks. I still have a few things to complete in the build, but as soon as the carpet's laid, I'll be there.
There's lots of things to consider when thinking about installing a solar system. It isn't cheap. But it does work, and sometimes the convenience of not having an electric bill is a much bigger plus than the negative of having to turn lights off when they're not needed.

[VALENT]

Wow, that is expensive to get an electric line Dusty. How many batteries are you using? By the way, just for knowledge's sake, how many people will live there and how big is the house? I am trying to get an idea of how much usage 600 watts will allow. Are you using a dc pump for your water well? I definitely think the "convenience" of no electric bill would outweigh many "negatives". I would love to hear more about things in your house.

[dhill]

Valent,
I don't have my complete battery bank yet. I'm using a couple of 100 amp hour batteries for now. That's not much storage, but I'll put in my full bank this week. My house isn't large, 6 rooms about 900 sf. It's large enough for 2 or 3 people. The solar package is large enough to run a household that size if we conserve a little. That means I can run lights and an energy efficient refrigerator and a swamp cooler, but I can't leave stuff on just because I don't want to go to an inconvenience of shutting it off. My water pump is dc. I chose it because my well is producing about 10 gpm and the pump draws about 4 gpm so I don't have to worry about running the well dry.

[VALENT]

That sounds pretty good, Dusty. Are you'll living there yet or going to be shortly? Do you use propane for cooking and eventually, heating?