New Window Installation

[msmity29]

We are having a new home built and I am really unsure of the correct installation process on the windows. Below I have attached some pictures. If anyone could provide feedback on whether or not the windows look correct I'd greatly appreciate it! Thanks!

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h149/msmity29/PICT0044.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h149/msmity29/PICT0040.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h149/msmity29/PICT0038.jpg

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h149/msmity29/PICT0024.jpg

[David]

First things first...Your builder's subs are lazy and sloppy.

Second, I don't know all the products, but a thin piece of red tape (photo 2) is marginal.

Third, they should not have cut all the typar out like they did. They should have made an I cut and wrapped it around the framing members. See photo 4. That should have wrapped around the framing members.

As long as the windows are level and plumb, the shimming will be fine. However, backerrod should be used to insulate the cavity. Do not let them use caulk. Here's why: my house in Mundelein leaked air thru the windows terribly! Insulate them properly!!

I'll get you some installation links after lunch. I don't have a lot of time to write right now.

It's not horrible. I've seen worse - by my builder here. But you want the best, not some half-a$$ job.
- Why waste money on heating when a few bucks and attention to details will save a lot!
- Why waste the opportunity to seal your house from water? They should spend the extra day it takes a crew to do it right way.

[Cole]

First things first...Your builder's subs are lazy and sloppy.


Dave,
Great post, nothing to add except that I agree with the above statement.

I agree with everything you said 100% in your post.

[msmity29]

Thanks for the info guys! Based upon my past experiences with this builder, I doubt he'll be apt to change his normal install procedure much. That being said, what can I, myself, do to improve the installation of the windows. By the way, I am assuming he will be using caulk but I am not sure.

[woodall83]

You should remember that this is a production builder (I can tell from what appears to be the development in the pictures??), and you're not going to get the same quality as you would with a custom builder. Not saying it's right, just stating fact. Dave has made good points, but I don't see a huge problem with the way it's done. The builder will probably not insulate (from my experience) so make sure it gets done, with backerrod like he said. And make sure all the outsides are sealed with tape.

The installation itself looks good though.

[msmity29]

What exactly is backerrod and where can I buy it? And can I use Tyvek tape even though the wrap is really Typar?

[Cole]

You can buy backer rod at any of the big box lumber companies. ( Home Depot, Lowes )

Yes you can use that tape, I see no problem with it.

[David]

I've looked closer at photo 2. It concerns me. But production homes always do, now that I own one.

You see how they left the Typar flange over the window, on the left one... they just nailed it to the window. IMO that Typar should be tucked under (too late now) the window. Then the window should be installed over it. Then taping. Like I said, some argue to leave it untucked. That's horsecrap if you ask me.

How to tape: You always start low, work up. That way, you are creating layers for water to run down the outside. You would never tuck your winter coat into your pants, would you?

What you can do:

#1 - Tape. Use a good product and apply it well. I know Cole said no worries on their tape - maybe he has experience with this tape. I think the tape may be suspect. Looks like it belongs on Seasame Street. :rolleyes: ALL TAPES WILL LOOSE ADHESIVENESS.

If you have the money, and it's not too big of an issue to you, buy the good stuff, like TyVek's tape. It's wider and will probably adhere longer. I am not sure if you should leave the builder's tape on or take it off, since if you pull it off the builder will threaten warranty BS. Tape under the sills. Then up the sides. Then across the top. Be sure to fully overlap all corners. Not just partially. If you do it, do it right.

#1b
-- Tape all vertical seams.
-- Leave horizontal seams untaped.
-- The top layer of TyPar should overlap on top of the bottom layer by 6".
-- Any and all holes in the TyPar should be taped. Even long, horizontal rips in it should be taped, because they do not overlap.
-- The TyPar should be overlaped on top of the top plate of the 2nd story. I'm 99% sure yours isn't, since most custom builders don't go to that extent. Not a huge deal, but would have been nice to have.

#2 Be sure the builder installed the windows according to Crestline's directions. Otherwise, bye bye Crestline warranty. My concern here - the windows are only nailed 1/2 way up. I wonder why that is. I don't know. Seems to me like they are in a hurry maybe? Read the directions and nail them appropriately.

#3 As mentioned, backer rod is sold at big boxes. Peel off the caulk they will invariable install around the inside of the window. Install backer rod all around it. There are some newer products available to replace b/r. Can't remember what they are - only heard of them.

#4 Finally, never take anything your builder tells you as the final word. IF your builder is both intelligent and honest, he will not be worried about some people on line criticizing his work. My builder and builder's supervisor gave me all kinds of rational that were flat out lies, or they were uninformed. Don't be lied to; don't me misinformed. If your supervisor gives you crap for doing something right, ignore him.

[Vector]

That red tape is intended for sealing vapor barrier inside the house, not for use on the exterior. The tape is similar to what is used for Tyvek/Typar, but not identical. That's sloppy.

It is also, completely the wrong product for sealing the window flanges like that. There should be a rubberized asphalt product like Vycor over the flanges at minimumk (some people will argue that an adhesive product like Vycor will eventually fail and that something even better should be used, but certainly nothing less should be done).

d2frette is right on about how they should be taped.

[stuccoman]

And do not tape the bottom of the windows. It can trap water in.

[David]

Stuccoman from Kansas City. Now that is familiar... :)

[stuccoman]

Why is that?

[David]

Do you ever go to the bahrr?

[stuccoman]

Yes! I have been there a time or 2.

[stuccoman]

Back to the windows. Do no let them flash them this way.


http://www.badstucco.com/ff.htm

[msmity29]

Thanks for all the great feedback! So to sum it all up, I should:

1. Buy some window flashing tape and seal around the top and sides of the window flanges. I can just tape over the top of the red tape they used.

2. Seal any holes and vertical seams in the Typar with Tyvek tape or equivalant.

3. Check to make sure windows are installed correctly according to Crestline.

[David]

Yes. But..

#1 If the red tape peels away nicely, I'd probably peel it away...but I say screw the builder and his threats of warranty. If you don't peel it away, be sure you cover the tape up with adequate surface on both sides, otherwise your tape will hold to the tape (aka, when the red tape begins to peel, then so goes your tape).

#4 Backer rod.

[msmity29]

I forgot about the backer rod. I went to Home Depot this past weekend and asked for it. They had no idea what I was talking about in the Millwork department.

[stuccoman]

And what ever you do keep takeing pictures.

[stuccoman]

Look at page # 5



http://www.pella.com/lowes_thermastar/thermastar/TStar_Window_Install.pdf#search

[David]

I forgot about the backer rod. I went to Home Depot this past weekend and asked for it. They had no idea what I was talking about in the Millwork department.

Ask the window counter. They should know what it is. If they do not, then calmly run like hell out of the store. Then, find another HD or go to the Lowe's in The Lake In The Hills. :shock:

[David]

And what ever you do keep takeing pictures.

Agreed.

I'd highly recommend photo/video of all the internals (pipes, electrical, ductwork, ...). Hopefully you won't need it for a long time. It's like insurance.

[msmity29]

I asked the guy at the window counter and he had no idea. He even said he installs windows! As for the photos, we have taken video at each stage of construction and will continue to do so.

[David]

I asked the guy at the window counter and he had no idea. He even said he installs windows!

Scary, but not surprising.

Here is just an example:
http://www.dap.com/product_details.aspx?product_id=356

[stuccoman]

These folks have it in bulk. And it is alot cheaper that way.

http://www.vlgoedecke.com/



http://www.aloghomestore.com/backer-rod.shtml

[stuccoman]

Improper trim/flashing/moisture barrier and window installation. This house was 8 years old.

http://www.badstucco.com/woodrot/indexwr.html

[Vector]

I asked the guy at the window counter and he had no idea. He even said he installs windows! As for the photos, we have taken video at each stage of construction and will continue to do so.

Look for it in the paint aisle, near the caulk.

HD guys are like any other store clearks, if it isn't in their department, it must not exist!

[David]

Improper trim/flashing/moisture barrier and window installation. This house was 8 years old.

http://www.badstucco.com/woodrot/indexwr.html

That's a pathetic installation....

[stuccoman]

Yes Dave it was. And to make it worse they did all the windows on the house that way. The wood rot guy was there working on it there was a for sale sign in the front yard. He had the homowner come out and look at it then put new trim on and left. I was working on the house next door.

http://www.badstucco.com/Chimneyrepair/index1_chiminey.html

It did have stucco issues.

[msmity29]

I did find the backer rod at Menards. After I stuff in in the gaps, should I then caulk over the top?

[stuccoman]

Yes and not with the 99 cent a tube stuff. More like $5.00 a tube.

[Sweep]

Backer rod is just a smooth rope of closed cell foam used behind sealant to form it in a curved profile and prevent it from going too deeply into the joint. It should always be larger than the gap so it will be compressed a bit. Buy several thicknesses and use what fits best.

I now see that I missed a page explaining about backer rod.

I do not recommend putting a housewrap under a window flange and into a rough opening, although I realize it is the conventional "air-barrier" method promoted so effectively by DuPont. Contrary to DuPont's thinking, water does get behind the housewrap and it does get into the rough opening of windows at the jamb and especially at the head detail. To me the housewrap has to perform first as a weather-barrier. I want it outside and overlapping anything that fills an opening, not inside of it, and I really don't like "flaps" cut into the housewrap at the window head. Sill flashing is by far the most important aspect of a window flashing system because it is the only "back-up" system you are going to get, but since it is too late to do it here, I won't describe how to do it.

I like to install the window with sealant around the upper 3 sides, then flash the window flange to the bare wood sheathing with Vycor (WB primer on the wood and hard rolling with a steel roller will make an unbelievably good seal). Then install the housewrap and seal the edges to the upper 3 flanges of the window (this can be done with only one layer of flashing if the housewrap is cut back enough). The butyl flashing tapes like SmartFlash and StraightFlash will work too but nothing sticks to wood like Vycor over WB primer.

Be careful to keep any asphalt product from getting into the sealant joint between the window and the trim. The plasticizers in most sealants cause asphalt to dissolve and run. Flexible PVC flashing will do the same thing but it is not a problem with PVC windows.

At this point it doesn't matter if the bottom flange is taped because any water that gets into the rough opening will be absorbed into the wood framing or the interior drywall before it passed out at the sill. Full sill flashing would have had shims or a mesh to allow water caught by the sill flashing to escape at the unsealed lower flange.

There are many ways to install a nail-fin window and I believe they all offer different degrees of bad design because the window manufacturers still don't think the installation issues are their responsibility and think more about manufacturing and shipping issues. The only nail-fin window installation method that I think has a fighting chance of working is the one I have described above although few builders will agree. The local WR Grace rep first described this system to me and told me that Jeld-Wen recommended it.
http://www.jeld-wen.com/_pdf/resources/installation/JII002.pdf

Jeld-Wen attaches the above installation instructions to every one of their clad wood windows.

[msmity29]

I just wanted to update everyone on what we've done and pose a another question. After further inspection of the window installation, the builder filled all the gaps around the windows with pieces of fiberglass insulation. So what we did was pull all this out, insert backer rod and then replace the fiberglass back over the top. We did not tell the builder we were doing this (I did ask if we could caulk the gaps and the builder's assistant said no and that it would negate the manufacturer's warranty) and figured the replaced insulation would cover up the backer rod. Now we are going to apply window flashing around the top and sides of the exterior of the windows. One of the questions I still have is if I should tape over the Typar where staples were used to attach it to the OSB? By the way, the red tape they used is made by a company called Venture and is sold at Menards. I will attach a link below if anyone wants to check it out. Thanks in advance.
http://www.venturetape.com/final/construction_products.asp?id=459

[Sweep]

Regarding the red Venture tape: even the manufacturer considers it a housewrap repair tape rather than window flashing. I would consider it worthless and even dangerous if it got in the way of real self-adhering flashing. All repair tape does is hold loose housewrap in place until the siding gets installed. Read the Tyvek installation instructions. They don't recommend that their acrylic adhesive backed repair tape be used as flashing; they recommend using their butyl backed flashing tape called StraightFlash and for good reason. Where do contractor's get these ridiculous ideas?

I suspect that Crestline couldn't care less what you put between the jamb and rough opening; it's not intended as waterproofing. I always leave a small space at the outside so water can drain to the sill flashing and backer rod works well for that.

I doubt Crestline even has a recommended method of installation — it's the only manufacturer I have run across that doesn't have one on their web site. I called their 800 number and someone promised to fax me the instructions if they could actually find any. I'll post it here if they do. Now I'm going to get a bunch of useless catalogs in the mail from Crestline and sleezy sales calls.

Here's one of my favorite questions for contractors/consultants who try to scam me about information and codes: "Can I borrow your copy? I promise I'll bring it back in an hour; I just want to make a quick copy." You need to drag out the request so you can watch his face while he thinks of an answer. As you get older you learn to enjoy more of the simple pleasures of life.

I wish I could think of a way to fix this problem without firng the contractor since he obviously doesn't take direction well. I can't tell you how many homeowners come to forums like this one with the same problem — ignorant or dishonest or careless window installers. The bottom line is how much you can afford to spend and how the project is financed. It's always: pay me now or pay me later.

A roofing consultant once told me that the purpose of a roofing warranty was to get the final payment out of the owner. I hate to tell you that a window warranty is only as good as the installer. Can you imagine how difficult it would be to get this guy to fix a leak later? Can you imagine what Crestline would say about the installation? A warranty usually only pays off when the double-paned glass fogs which usually occurs after the warranty ends.

If you lived close by I could drop by with my fake OSHA hardhat and give the guy a heart attack.

[David]

Well said.

I wish I could think of a way to fix this problem without firng the contractor since he obviously doesn't take direction well. I can't tell you how many homeowners come to forums like this one with the same problem — ignorant or dishonest or careless window installers. The bottom line is how much you can afford to spend and how the project is financed. It's always: pay me now or pay me later.

Production builder. Smity has no choice in installer. Builder doesn't care because it probably won't fail within the 1 year warranty.


If you lived close by I could drop by with my fake OSHA hardhat and give the guy a heart attack.

Can I borrow that? Around here, a DNS hat would get a big rise, too.

[msmity29]

As always, thanks for the feedback guys! I know my builder, and even though everyone I talk to says he's the best builder in the area, I still know it is what it is and he won't change anything. This being said, I am trying to make the best of the situation.

[Sweep]

Here are the Typar instructions on how to install their butyl based self-adhering flashing tape. This is as basic an installatin as I have ever seen. No one should accept less. This is rock bottom of the quality scale.
http://www.typarhousewrap.com/flashingPS-installation.html

Here are the Crestline instructions. They say essentially nothing. This method would not meet the building code in 90% of the U.S. I'll bet the limited warranty covers next to nothing other than glass.
http://i5.tinypic.com/148fcqt.jpg

Your contractor may be able to beat you like a rented mule but he can no longer lie about manufacturer installation requirements or voided warranties.

Send me a copy of your contract and I promise you I can break this guy. I've had to do this to a lot of contractors and a surprising number of them thank me later. I'm not kidding. After they adopt better methods they start getting better jobs. The contractor that gave me by far the hardest time told a friend of mine years later that I had taught him how to bill a job properly and it had helped him made a lot of money. I don't actually remember doing that but you get the idea.

Other than lack of flashing, the important thing to watch out for with PVC windows is thermal expansion and contraction. PVC moves more than any other building product as its temperature changes. Don't count on sealant around the perimeter of the nailing fin or sealant/repair tape over the nails. Only self-adhering flashing (butyl or modified asphalt based) will do.

Anything between the frame and the rough opening must be easily compressed. These window can easily be warped out of square. Check the operation of every sash before the walls get buttoned up.

[msmity29]

Are you saying the backer rod could cause the windows to warp? Most of them don't seem to open and close very smoothly as is.

[Sweep]

CRESTLINE CRESTWOOD, VINLY CREST, PROCRAFT
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[Sweep]

The rest of it:



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To make a claim under this Crestline HomeCare Limited Warranty, you
must contact the contractor who installed the product or the Crestline
distributor or dealer from whom the product was purchased, or, if these
persons are not known, contact:

CRESTLINE® Warranty Customer Service
880 Southview Drive
Mosinee, WI 54455

Please provide the following information:

(a) Your name, address, and telephone number.
(b) A description of the product for which the claim is being made.
(c) The date the product was purchased (or approximate date if
exact date is not known).
(d) The name of the CRESTLINE dealer/distributor from whom the
product was purchased (if known).
(e) The nature of the product complaint.
(f) The coded information as stamped on the spacer between the
panes of glass.

Effective 2/3/03

[msmity29]

Are you saying the backer rod could cause the windows to warp? Most of them don't seem to open and close very smoothly as is?

[Sweep]

No, the backer rod could not cause any problems. Most problems are due to unsquare installation or high expansion foam between the jamb and rough opening.

I am told that the 200 series windows have PVC "compression jamb liners" that hold the sash and seal it by the force of the jamb compressing the PVC jamb liner usually backed by foam. They also have, I am told, a spring loaded balance mechanism. Both of these design features are never easy to open or close when new. When they get older they can open too easily and even pop up an inch or two after being closed if you don't lock them. The replacement for this window is the 300 series which has a "block and tackle system" like almost all windows do these days. I guess somebody got a good deal on the close-out sale. I hope it was you.

[msmity29]

Not really! Anyway to lubricate the platic tracks for easier opening and closing?

[Sweep]

I would avoid lubrication as long as possible. The contractor should be responsible especially if he selected the windows. If you use silicone spray read the can carefully. Be cautious about any petroleum distillates like WD40.