Masonry Fireplace

[Chilton]

I am building a house and have the foundation/basement walls completed. The original plans called for a metal fireplace/chimney but I would like to replace this with a CMU constructed fireplace/chimney. Should it be constructed before the framing is started or after?

[roger g]

I would check with your carpenter and the mason who is doing the work. Eveyone has their own preferences. If they work together then it should get done right.
I hope you aren't putting in a fireplace. They are a huge heat loss.

Roger

[Rich]

In Colorado below 7000' you can't even put a fireplace in new construction. The owner of the project I'm working on now wanted one but couldn't do it - so we took the whole thing out.
In many rooms in the house it's also a local code that you can't put an open air fireplace because it draws air from the room (like in a bedroom).

[mreynolds]

Does this apply to new technology like 0 clearance fireplaces? What about wood burning stoves?

[roger g]

I think you will find in the future, insurance companies are going to have a huge impact on what will be built. Mind you, their rates won't drop one red cent. I just read up here than the insurance industry profit went up over 700%. All these losses that they were talking about sort of disappeared..
Up here if your oil tank is in the house, they won't insure you. If the tank is over maybe 10 years, they won't insure you. If you buy a house that has the old 60 amp service, also problems. I hear rumbling that any renovations of any description that isn't done by a licenced journeyman ( and they want proof) they won't insure the house. Big brother has even bigger brothers.

roger

[Rich]

Does this apply to new technology like 0 clearance fireplaces? What about wood burning stoves?

No.. my comment was more geared towards open air fireplaces and wood burning.

[mreynolds]

My wife has been begging me to put a fireplace in our new home. But it seems like they are horribly inefficient and a waste of time. I having been looking into some sealed fireplaces and wood buring stoves. I have settled on a Vermont Castings wood buring stove. 82 percent efficient and up to a 12 hour burn time. I figure by the time I get done with some cultured stone, raised hearth and some black pipe it will look pretty good.

[roger g]

good idea. As I said, fireplaces are a heat loss. Not just inefficient but a loss! You would be further ahead (heating costs) by NOT having one. It has to do with heat going up the chimney when you are not using it. Who ever stays up to the wee small hours to make sure all the ashes are cold before closing the damper.
Also as Rich said, it consumes so much air that it has to draw it through every crack, dryer vent, exhaust vent it can.

roger

[grumpydasmurf]

Fireplaces are romantic and add good character to the inside of a home.

[Rich]

Don't know if anyone watched the Extreme Makeover Home edition this past weekend.. but they have a hologram fireplace in there. Looked as real as any fireplace I've seen.. except no pop and crack and no heat.

[roger g]

Hate to break it to you Rich. It's a painting :D

Roger

[Rich]

Nope.. when they were showing the house Ty opened the glass doors and stuck his hand in there and even said "it's a hologram".

[Rich]

Here's an example..
http://www.fireplaces-fireplaces.com/types_Electric-Fireplaces2.htm

[roger g]

Electric fireplaces are quite common out here and you are right, the flames look real. I never saw an electric fireplace out east at all. The funny part is that you can get them without heat!!! The not-so-funny part is that they cost almost as much as a gas fireplace.
The wife and I were commenting just this morning as to what we expect in house today compared to what we expected years ago. No wonder very few people are mortgage free. We want to much. An electric fireplace without heat.................... amazing!

Roger

[Rich]

LOL.. in the project I'm working on there are 6 fireplaces.. none of them are for heat. We have radiant floor heat throughout plus forced air. Humidity control etc..etc. The best of everything.. would be nice to have money eh?

[grumpydasmurf]

money=good

[Rich]

The more I've got the happier.. I mean the more I spend.

[grumpydasmurf]

"Yeah I know what you mean", he says while smiling at his new color laser printer.

[Rich]

***looking at is new Dell Axim - eyes gleaming***
LOL

[Shanley]

roger g writes"...As I said, fireplaces are a heat loss..." Do you have test data that proves this? If so I'd like to see it, beacause I categorically disagree. I'll give you that fireplaces are an inefficent heat source, but I disagree that they are a heat loss. Rumford fireplaces are a little more fuel efficent and there are products out there, as well as means and methods, for reclaiming the heat that enters the smoke chamber sending it back into the house. Not only are fireplaces great ambience, they also are a very attractive amenity when selling your house as well as adding significantly to the value of the house. The industry has made great strides in the area of fuel efficient fireplaces and many options exist for the homeowner to choose from. So lets not be so quick to dismiss the value that fireplaces bring to the homeowner. There's nothing like the warmth, crackle and pop of a fireplace especially when shared with a woman and a few cocktails.

[Shanley]

Further, if a fresh air supply is your concern one can be built into the firebox. Regarding the damper you just choke it off when the ashes are smoldering just enough to vent heat loss will be minimal. I am assuming that you don't live in a bubble and that there are greater areas of thermal transfer in your house than a slightly open damper.

If your house is as air tight as you infer I'm surprised that your windows don't pop out when you open and shut your doors.

[roger g]

Hi Shanley, I'll send Rich a whole bunch of papers in one article about combustion air and hopefully he will send it to you personally.
As Rich said that in Colorado you can't even put a fireplace under 7000 feet. Somebody is saying something! Insurance companies are starting to clamp down on fireplaces and it isn't just to do with fires.
Natural gas consumes(I think) 10 cubic feet of air for every cubic feet of gas so if you have a 100,000btu furnace and natural gas has approx 1000 btu per cu ft, that means you need approx 10,000 cu ft of air coming in every hour just for the furnace. And if I remember correctly, the flue on a fireplace is about 7 times larger than a comparable gas burning appliance. I don't know how much air a fireplace consumes but it is probably a lot. It has to draw it from some where and it sometimes draws it DOWN existing gas burning appliances, which means it (the fireplace) is sucking in carbon monoxide from the gas appliances into the house. The same is when as you say dampens down the fireplace ( a job many times not done, a gas appliance kicks in or a bathroom or kitchen exhaust comes on, you stand the possibility of sucking back into the house, the products of combustion from the fireplace.
Yes our houses up here are pretty tight because we get minus 30-40 below and the heating costs are climbing.
I've read a lot on the subject and I see that a lot of the problems with fireplaces seem to involve cold climates and the fact people in general do not know how and when to dampen down fireplaces..
Anyways I hope Rich send you the stuff in fact I'll try to put an attachment.

Roger

[roger g]

c:\program files\qualcomm\eudora\attach\~MAP0004.jpg; c:\program files\qualcomm\eudora\attach\~MAP0005.jpg; c:\program files\qualcomm\eudora\attach\~MAP0006.jpg; c:\program files\qualcomm\eudora\attach\~MAP0007.jpg; c:\program files\qualcomm\eudora\attach\~MAP0008.jpg;


Does this work?

Roger

[mreynolds]

That seems to be a common theme. We finally have a construction loan, I know how much I can spend, I also know how much I can over spend. The bank was nice enough to approve us a loan far greater than what we need (35,000 above the 10 percent contingency fee, they must like us or want us in the poor hosue). Either way, with the technologies we have, basically everything is pay a little more, getting better quality, or get it up faster. We have chosen an additional $3500 over a standard block basement to do an ICF poured basement. The other non standard option I checked out was Structural Engineered Panels, for an additional 7500 I could have my house framed in 4 hours with r-24 walls. Probably won't go with that option because I would rather use 2x6, add extra insulation and still have fun playing with my saws in the process. Not to mention 7500 can go a long way in a kitchen or a nice Vermont Castings wood buring stove. :D

[Chilton]

Man, ask a simple question and do we get tangents. Out of 23 replies to the question I posted, I did get one which gave a reasonable response, a bunch that questioned my sanity in wanting a fireplace, and others I still haven’t figured out how they relate. For purposes of placing all of the worried minds to rest, here are some more particulars:

1. “Heat Loss” in central Alabama is a desirable thing most of the year. For the couple of months when it really gets cold (below 40 degrees F) the fireplace will have a steel firebox with glass doors and re-circulating air passages. While the fireplace is primarily for ambience, it will also serve as a backup heat source when (not if, when) power is interrupted.
2. My insurance agent (and as well as many others) is competing for my business!
3. The construction of an ash cleanout will provide a source of air from the outside, which, I hope, will keep the house from imploding when a fire is burning.
4. The house will be built to all applicable codes.
5. I am not going to burn any “holograms” in the fireplace. I understand that “holograms” are fine trees and make good firewood, but they don’t grow well in central Alabama.
6. I’m glad I don’t live in Colorado.
7. Finally, the house will be sitting in the middle of hundreds of acres of renewable energy sources (i.e., trees). All of which are free. Can’t get any more efficient that that!

[roger g]

Well I would think that one of the main reason for this site is to be interesting and secondly to answer questions. Just answering questions is not always interesting. Tangents are good but it's up to the questioner to try to pull it back.
If you could open up the attachments I sent ( I can't) you would see some really intersting stuff about fireplaces. As an example it shows a house with a breeze on one side of the house. This breeze creates a positive pressure along that wall. Now on the otherside of the house you could have a negative pressure. If you have your freshair fireplace intake on that particular wall, instead of giving you combustion air it is in effect making your problem even worse. You get spillage . Fire alarms go off, canaries die. Lots of fun. It also explain why when someone say "open the window" to solve a spillage problem, it doesn't always work.
If you ever notice that with high efficiency furnaces you see 2 pipes sticking out beside each other. Real close in fact. Their location all has to do with being in the same pressure zone as each other. I'm saying this just to demostrate that big furnace companies know about the outside pressure differences. They don't care what pressure it is as long as both pipes are in the same zone.
So, did you figure out whether to call the mason or the carpenter first. :D

roger

[Kate]

Hi, I have to contradict. Modern fireplaces aren’t a heat loss. My new fireplace is manufactured by normatherm, Europe, and heats my house (123,000 BTU/h, 220 sqm) and provides hot water as well. The furnace is completely water-cooled (grate, sidewalls, back, top) and the fireplace is connected to the central heating system. When the fire burns, the furnace heats up the water. This is pumped into the central heating system and no gas is used anymore. The entire turning on and off of the pump is temperature controlled and done automatically. The central heating is delivering the hot water as usual to all the rooms in my house. When the fire burns down, the pump is shut off and no energy is lost. The fireproof glass door makes the fireplace save and a draught adjustment flap regulates the flow of the air into the furnace. A modern fireplace has nothing to do with Stone Age technique! Its save and efficient (about 82 %). I believe modern fireplaces are protecting the environment by replacing fossil energy. And of course a modern fireplace fulfills dust emission regulations. But the best of all: A modern fireplace really is cozy and romantic.
For more technical information check the Internet or the homepage of the manufacturer www.normatherm.com.

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[Shanley]

That's really not aconventional fireplace so the comparison isn't relative.