Satellite TV Wiring Questions

[Mike44]

Hi, I wasn't sure if I should ask this question in this forum, or on the electrical forum, but anyways...

Okay, so we moved into a house last year (4-years old) and are finally getting around to having a satellite dish installed. We are in Nova Scotia, Canada and will probably have the service provided by Star Choice. There are also two RG6 coax cables in each of the six outlets around the house and they all originate at a central point in the basement. The previous owner took his satellite dish and multiswitch when he moved out, so I'm practically starting new. I've attached a PDF of a little diagram of how I would like to hook up the system, but I've got a few questions about it:

Question 1: I was reading a Do It Yourself satellite installation guide and it said:

"DO NOT USE EXISTING CABLING OR THE PREINSTALLED HOUSE CABLING. ALWAYS CONNECT THE COAXIAL CABLE DIRECTLY FROM THE LNB ON THE DISH TO THE RECEIVER “IF IN” PORT - PASSING ONLY THROUGH THE GROUND BLOCK. SEVERE DAMAGE WILL RESULT IF THE RECEIVER IS HOOKED TO DEVICES OTHER THAN THE LNBF. THE OUTPUT OF A SINGLE LNB SHOULD ONLY FEED ONE LOCATION AND THERE CANNOT BE ANY TV SPLITTERS OR OTHER DEVICES IN LINE UNLESS APPROVED FOR SATELLITE INSTALLATIONS."

Is this true?? I want to use the existing cabling; it is RG6 coax cabling which is approved for satellite feeds. I thought I could also pass the satellite feed through a multiswitch to service all 6 room outlets (will only be using 2 for now, but I might move a TV to another room) but it says not to pass it through anything else.

Question 2: Is this a good multi-switch? The Spaun 3 Input 6 Output Multiswitch (SMS382F) (http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=SSMS361F). It is powered so there no signal loss through the switch, right? Any suggestions on other good 3x6 or 2x6 switches?

Question 3: Where should the grounding block be located? Right after the satellite dish, or half-way between dish and multi-switch, right before multi-switch, inside or outside (would prefer it to be inside and run the ground wire to a nearby electrical junction box)? There is a 100' run between the dish and the switch.

Okay, that is it! Sorry, I always seem to write so much. I guess I go into too much detail.

Thanks, Michael

[giddonah]

First, the existing cables should be fine. I don't know why you're going to use a 2 LNB dish though, the new dishes have 5 LNB's. If you mean 2 coax cables, then you're going to be short on cables for a 5 LNB dish. We run 8 RG6, 2 Cat5, 1 14-2, and 1 #6 or #8 ground to a dish location. That's overkill just to get the thing to work, but if I were pulling wires, I'd pull them all. The dish will use 4 RG6's right away, with the possibility of adding more satelites. One RG6 for satelite radio, and the other for off-air tv. The Cat5 are for satelite internet, and something else. The 14-2 is for a dish heater and the ground is for, well... grounding. I can't remember the name of the miltiswitches we use right now, I'll check tomorrow. We ground it up at the dish though, but I'll get some more detail on that too. I think the warning about existing cables is just to keep people from trying to feed satelite over cables that can't transmit the full signal, so if your cables are good, there's no reason to replace them. Seems like a silly warning to me, why not just tell people to check their wires before hooking everything up?

Anyway, your biggest problem will be aligning the dish perfectly. You can get up there and move it until you get a picture, but we use a satelite finder when we install dishes. This helps to perfectly dial in the signal. You can do it by hand, but you might not get it as good as it can be, but it will work.

[Mike44]

Okay, thanks - I see what you mean by the 5 LNB satellites now. I guess I just thought I would install exactly what the previous owner had, but I could still pull 3 extra RG6 wires through the wall to outside depending on what I get from the service provider. Don't think I'll use satellite radio or off-air TV, and we get DSL internet, so it's pretty much just the one dish.

Any ideas on the best place to mount the grounding block though? Inside vs. outside? I was hoping to do it inside at the point where the cables comes through the wall because there is a junction box nearby where I can route the grounding wire to the existing house grounding.

Thanks giddonah!!!

[giddonah]

I forgot to ask about the grounding block location. We do run the ground all the way to the dish location though, so I'd assume it would be grounded there. A 5LNB dish only needs 4 wires, but I strongly suggest adding two just in case. It's not that much more money now, but later, if you need them, it'd be a royal pain to do it all again.

[David]

Some new dishes may have 5 LNBs, but if you use a service like DishNetwork or DirectTV, then you only get one. If you are willing to pay the extra $5/month for additional rooms, then they'll install the extra LNBs for the dish.

If you don't need to pull wires, don't. If it were new construction, and you enjoyed your home entertainment alot, then that would be different. You have existing wires which are sufficient, so don't pull extras until the time arises when you need to.

There are special multiswitches for satellite signals pre-receiver hookup. Ideally, it is better to run the LNB directly to the receiver. Even powered multiswitches loose a little signal. The closer the switch is to the signal source, the better. The link doesn't work. It just takes me to the homepage of the website.

I do agree with giddonah about pulling wires. When you do it, just do it once and be done with it.

I'd want the grounding block where it is most safe. It would seem to me it's safest outside the house.

Gid - They wrote the clause in at the bottom, where it says do not use splitters unless they are approved for Satellite signal.

[David]

A 5LNB dish only needs 4 wires


How is that possible? I though each LNB needed it's own coax.

If 5 only need 4, then you're doubling one up somewhere, in which case, 6LNB would really only need 3. No?

[giddonah]

I don't understand exactly why, but two satellites are on one, and the rest each get their own. I think it's from when there were just two LNB's and one cable, then each time they added a sattelite and an LNB, they added a cable. I had it explained to me twice, but I still don't understand it. I'm not much of an audio learner, I need to do it myself or take notes to get it. I'll ask again to get a good answer on monday if I can remember to ask.

[Mike44]

David: sorry about that website. I guess if you click on the link - it'll take you to the homepage, then in the search bar on their page, type the serial number of the switcher (SMS3603NF - yeah, the serial number on my first post is wrong too, sorry!).

[David]

Sure looks like it'll work. As for brand, I don't think any of us know what the best is. Maybe Gid or Vector know.

[giddonah]

Ok, monday, ask about multiswitch brands and grounding location.

[Mike44]

Don't really know if this means anything, but... I was reading that the common misconception of the grounding block is that it protects the equipment against lightning strikes or surges. But in actual fact, that amount of electricity can not all be funneled through the grounding block and will still be carried on the cable and damage any downstream equipment anyways.

Instead, it said that the grounding block simply filters any extra 'static electricity' that tends to build up on the outer metal cable sheathing of the RG6. Because of this the mounting location of it should be closer to the multiswitch to ensure that the least possible amount of 'extra charge' gets sent into the multiswitch.

It sounds logical to me, but is that actually how it works??

Thanks, Michael

[giddonah]

Ok, I have one or two answers. Grounding happens up by the dish. After the LNB's and after the drip loop, they ground it as the wires come down after that. Sounds like 3ft from the dish. The grounding happens with just two cables though. The shielding is grounded, which in turn grounds the system. You only need one of them, but we gorund two of the cables just because.

Also, the LNB's have a multiswitch built in, so all the signals come out of all four cables. You can run each cable to a receiver, or to a multiswitch if you need more than 4. You run all 4 to the other multiswitch though. The guy I was with today couldn't remember the brand of multiswitches we use, but says the 16-way switches are near $1k, so aparently it's not easy to split a satellite signal. We usually just put in 8-way switches. I'll try to get a brand tomorrow.

Sounds like that theory of yours is not far off Mike.

[Mike44]

Alright, there's some pretty good info there! Thanks! I guess the dependent factor here is how many cables run from the dish. And I'll only have that info once we actually have the dish installed. We've decided to have it "professionally" installed (put in the quotations because a lot of people on other forums say their installers were all terrible!!!) but I'll be with the guy the whole time to make sure he does what I want.

I was thinking that he could by-pass the 'multi-switch area' for now during the installation and setup using a female to female connector just to be able to attach at least 1 reciever to properly align the dish. Then, after, I could buy the multi-switch and grounding-blocks and hook it all up all the other outlets myself.

[giddonah]

the multiswitch at the dish should be built in. We don't install one, we just hook up the dish and align it with a sat finder ($$$$). Your standard dish will have four coax outputs. You can run a direct cable to your receiver and also four runs to your head end and install another multiswitch later. If you only need four receivers, and never plan on needing more, just run each one to its own receiver from the dish directly. That's what your installer will probably be used to. Make sure they're direct runs though. Do all you can to not have any female-male-male-female "extension" runs. The only one you should have is the one at the wall behind your receiver. The other end of that cable should land at a multiswitch in the basement or at the dish itself. Each time you interrupt your run, you lose signal strength.

[David]

FYI, if you are doing DishNetwork or DirectTV.....

There is no multiswitch at the dish, and each receiver will need to be hooked up by the technician. The tech will not fish any wires thru walls. They usually just hook the dish up to existing wiring or hook the dish up to the receiver if it is on an exterior wall. I'm not sure how they'd treat a 4 receiver home, though.

[Mike44]

No, I think we will get either Star Choice or Bell. They seem to be the better ones in my area. As of right now, all the outlets have been wired by the previous owner when the house was built, and I have re-done all the wall connections, so that is not a problem - the wires are in good condition. And I'll be able to pull extra lines from the multiswitch area in the basement to the dish whenever I need to because the feed lines are accessible in the overhead joists. They exit the top of the basement wall to get outside and run up the exterior wall to the dish.

Speaking of pulling wires, I'll probably have to replace the two existing ones from the satellite dish as well as pull two more. I noticed a piece of electrical tape on one of them and after pulling it off and looking underneath, I found that the outer insulation had been sliced open and the wire sheathing was all exposed and damaged!!! And you were saying something about signal loss giddonah???!!!!

[giddonah]

lol, yeah, that might affect your signal.

We use Zinwell miltiswitches. And after talking to another guy at work, we ground the dish itself too.

[Mike44]

You mentioned that you use a #6 or #8 ground wire that you run up to the dish for grounding. What would happen if it is, say, a #12? Is the grounding to absorb lightning strikes or just a general ground? I have an electrical box inside the basement near the point of entry of the RG6 cables that would work perfectly to tie the satellite ground and RG6 grounding block into the existing house wiring - but it is a #12 ground cable. It would be a huge pain to have to run a whole new #6 ground wire from the electrical panel all the way across the house to the dish.

P.S. I heard that lightning will cause damage to electronics no matter what kind of grounding you do. So is there even any reason to hook up lightning prevention grounding (i.e. #6 ground wire)? Maybe just a general ground (i.e.#12 ground wire) is simply 'sufficient' (unless the NEC states otherwise? - I couldn't find anything about that).

[giddonah]

we overdo most of what we do, so a #12 might be just fine. The grounding isn't so much for lightning as it is for signal interfearance. Almost all grounding done in electrical work has nothing to do with lightning. Grounding an electrical system is for a better system, and for safety in case something goes wrong and you get power in the wrong place.

[Mike44]

Well, we just had the "professional" install the dish tonight and while he did get the signal to the TV, that's about all he did. All his F-connectors were the cheapest, shautyiest (if that's a word) kind that you can get! They were the crimping kind, not the high quality compression kind.

When I replaced all the in-wall connections at the wall plates in the house a while back, I bought the cable stripper and compression tools and the high quality, waterproof F-connectors to do it (all about $100). Then he comes along with his utility knife to strip the cable and says that the tools are a waste of money becuase they do the same thing. Yeah, I thought, only a better job of it.

Not going to mention anything about his technique of grounding the system except that it was way too messy for me!!! I have to tidy it up all nice!!

So, it looks like I'll be going out there tomorrow to replace his connections and PROPERLY ground it. Sure it works fine and all right now, but I guess I just like things to be done to their best, especially when I fire up that crystal clear HD signal!!!!!

Enjoy life while you can, right?

[giddonah]

I vowed long ago to never let a cable/sattelite/phone installer EVER touch my house. Doing it right seems to be well beyond either their capability or budget. I hope he aligned your dish better than "that'll do". I hope it all works out for you.

[David]

I vowed long ago to never let a cable/sattelite/phone installer EVER touch my house.

Ironic, given you install all three and live in your house, don't you think? ;)

[giddonah]

I'm not a cable/sattelite/phone installer. I work for a company that installs a/v and home automation systems that's top 5 in the nation. I do install those things, but that's only the tip of the iceberg.

[Mike44]

I hope he aligned your dish better than "that'll do". I hope it all works out for you.

Yeah, it all worked out fine! He did use the satellite finder that you were talking about in an earlier message and did spend a while on the actual alignment of the dish (maybe because I was there watching!!). I just finished replacing all the connections yesterday and hooking up all the equipment into the home theatre system. And alas, after a year without TV, we finally have it again!!!!

[giddonah]

Congrats! I'm glad it's working for you.

[David]

I'm not a cable/sattelite/phone installer. I work for a company that installs a/v and home automation systems that's top 5 in the nation. I do install those things, but that's only the tip of the iceberg.

Gid - I hope you took it as light humor. Nothing serious!

[David]

Yeah, it all worked out fine! He did use the satellite finder that you were talking about in an earlier message and did spend a while on the actual alignment of the dish (maybe because I was there watching!!). I just finished replacing all the connections yesterday and hooking up all the equipment into the home theatre system. And alas, after a year without TV, we finally have it again!!!!

And you have HD signal now, right?

[giddonah]

Gid - I hope you took it as light humor. Nothing serious!

No harm done. It's all in good fun. My wife read my reply and asked "no name calling?":D

[Mike44]

Yeah, we've got HD only on a few (like 20) channels though like the sports and news channels. We have the second package up from the basic on Star Choice, and they throw in a few HD channels (maybe as a gimmic to get you to upgrade to full HD, I don't know!).

[Mike44]

Actually, I just also realized that our satellite dish is pointing directly over the area where our new garage is being built!!!! It looks fine right now because only the foundation has been poured, but I hope that the roof isn't too high so that is blocks the signal coming from the satellite - that would be a huge headache to have to deal with!!!!

I might post a few pictures of the progress of the garage on the "Show Off" forum (I think it's called that??). Might have a few questions about the electrical feed to it as well (as pretty much everyone else does constructing an external building!!).

[Nev]

Is it possible to have 4 cable outputs from the dish to any size multi-switch then to a receiver then finally to you tv

Like for example: The dish has 4 outputs and the mult-switch is 16 would you get 16 tv's to work?

Also I heard if you had went on vacation and the hotel had the same satellite system you could use your own card in their receiver, and get all your program stations ? Is this true?? Is this legal ?

[giddonah]

Yes, if you go to a multiswitch you take all four wires from the dish to the switch. And yes, a 16-way will give you 16 outputs, but you'll also need 16 receivers. I'm not sure about the card in the hotel thing, but it does seem plausible.

[David]

Also I heard if you had went on vacation and the hotel had the same satellite system you could use your own card in their receiver, and get all your program stations ? Is this true?? Is this legal ?

I doubt it is possible. I'd would think the satellite provider or cable provider has the card tied to the machine serial number. If you had a way to spoof the serial number, then yes, but I think that's beyond any of us here.

[giddonah]

Why mess with just watching your satellite on the road?

http://www.amazon.com/Sling-Media-Slingbox-PRO-SB200-100/dp/B000IVDIL4