Wiring plans

[David]

Right. It's not streaming as streaming implies some form of encryption or cyphering or whatever the right word is. This was plain video.

And it does work with 5e.

The box was by a top name mfr, Crestron I believe and the technology requires one on each side of the signal and is limited to 1 output. So I believe he was saying to run multiple TVs with this technology would be apprx a grand, but also that it's not really feasible for multiple tv installations.

Bottom line: We're probably going to rewire our house (production builder, terrible service, not many ports in our house) with 3xCat6+4Coax.
1 Cat6 = XBox (not XBox live)
1 Cat6 = Internet
1 Cat6 audio
3 Coax = Component Video
1 Coax = Composite Video
We may run another Cat6 as extra for future communication needs. Installing condiut at this point does not sound fun to me. Do you know if retrofitting a home w/ PVC or SmurfPipe for low-vo is easy? I would guess not.

[giddonah]

Actually, with crestron you can do anything. You can have all your a/v gear in racks in a mechanical room and have only speakers and tv's in each room with a touch panel on the wall. From there you can control everything, sending any video source to any tv in any room. Heck, you can have a wireless touchpanel remote. We do it every day. Amazing stuff, very expensive. And yes, baluns require a box at each end to encode and decode.

Your wiring choices seem odd to me. I've heard that you might be able to run 10GE over Cat6 over short distances, but if you're really planning on going that route, Cat6a would be the best bet. If you don't care about 10GE, Cat5e is best. I wouldn't run Cat6 today unless it was either the same price as cat5e or maybe a very small % more. Internet and Xbox? Why not just run one cat5e and use a switch? You can get them for nearly $20. Heck, I just bought a wireless g router that will be $5 after rebates. 4coax for video? Are you doing distributed audio/video? Why the cat5 for audio? If you're running line level audio, it would be best to run that on a 2sp. If it's speaker level a good 14/4 or even 12/4 if it's going a long way. I also see no provision for phones. Also, if you're going to go with coax for component, why an extra for composite? Why not just use one of your 3 coax for composite if you can't send component? Unless you know you'll be needing the two inputs simultaneously. Also, if you're sending component over coax, make sure it's good coax. Stay away from copper-clad-steel for video if you can. This is starting to sound like another thread entirely.

And no, I wouldn't want to retro in smurf. Definitely doesn't sound fun.

[David]

Gid -

I could probably just use Cat5e instead of Cat6. By the time I get around to doing it, they'll probably be close to the same price.

The XBox on a local only network works with a hub, but I'm not sure if it'll easily work with a router/switch. For internet, a switch is in the plans.

I hope to be doing distributed a/v. The 4th coax, for composite video, is for all the tv's that can't use component. I do want them to run simultaneously. I'd like to get a multiplexer that can send seperate signals to each tv, whether it be up to 2 or up to 4 different signals will depend on price.

I should change the cat-x for audio to 14/4. 12/4 gets extremely pricey.

LAN Phones suck. But I will leave room for future homeowners. We have 2 cells phones and that's all we need.

We don't even have the TVs yet, but we're getting there. Ya know?

Thanks for your input. No punn intended.

[giddonah]

Ok, this is worthy of another thread.

Hubs are nearly extinct. They act like blind messengers, sending all the information out on all the ports. Switches will see where the info is going and only send it down that port. Switches used to be so much more expensive that people used hubs, but now that switches are so cheap I don't even see hubs advertised anymore. I'd just run one network cable and use a switch, unless you really don't want another box under your tv. The xbox should work fine.

If you want distributed audio, how will you control it? At the least you'll want a cat5 next to your light switch for some kind of keypad. What kind of DA system are you going to install? And yes, at the very least use 16/4 for audio and not cat5. You'll be pushing too much power for those little wires. Not to state the obvious, but you're looking at speaker wire, right? I just want to make sure you're not thinking romex when I say 14/4.

For distributed video, what kind of sources are you distributing? If there's only one tv, I don't see why you can't just use one of your three coax at that location. Unless you have two tv's at the same location running different sources simultaneously, I'd just run 3 coax to each location. A multiplexer is for distributing satellite. You might be wanting a matrix video switcher, which will distribute component video from a dvd player for example.

Controlling all this stuff is the key. If you just want distributed audio, it's not so expensive. When you start adding video and other functionality that it starts to get really expensive. You then have to control the video sources, switch video outputs... and controlling all of that becomes the problem.

[David]

Ok, this is worthy of another thread.

Hubs are nearly extinct. They act like blind messengers, sending all the information out on all the ports. Switches will see where the info is going and only send it down that port. Switches used to be so much more expensive that people used hubs, but now that switches are so cheap I don't even see hubs advertised anymore. I'd just run one network cable and use a switch, unless you really don't want another box under your tv. The xbox should work fine.

XBox's need hubs - not routers/switches - for local networking, I believe. The boxes send out info about what's going on with that box, and all other boxes need that info. Each box processes what's going on in the game (there is a controller box, but I don't believe it processes everything and then sends processed game info back to the other boxes). There is no 1 central XBox mastering the game. I used to play frequently at a friends house with 16 people total. About 1/4th of us were in the IT field. I am pretty sure we used hubs because that's what XBox wanted, not because we didn't have routers.

So maybe the new XBox 360 can use a switch, but the cost to run an additional Cat5 wire to 4 rooms so I can enjoy my relic game of (the original) Halo on my XBox with some neighbors isn't that expensive. So I'm gonna do it anyway. LOL!



If you want distributed audio, how will you control it? At the least you'll want a cat5 next to your light switch for some kind of keypad. What kind of DA system are you going to install? And yes, at the very least use 16/4 for audio and not cat5. You'll be pushing too much power for those little wires. Not to state the obvious, but you're looking at speaker wire, right? I just want to make sure you're not thinking romex when I say 14/4.

For distributed video, what kind of sources are you distributing? If there's only one tv, I don't see why you can't just use one of your three coax at that location. Unless you have two tv's at the same location running different sources simultaneously, I'd just run 3 coax to each location. A multiplexer is for distributing satellite. You might be wanting a matrix video switcher, which will distribute component video from a dvd player for example.

OK. I want to be able to distribute HDDVD (or BlueRay DVDs) and HD Satellite (or HD Cable). I may also want to stream HD signals from the PC.

Here are my current thoughts:

1) the Satellite TV will always be on. Also, there will be an HD Satellite receiver and a non-HD Satellite receiver. So if we have DirecTV with 2 signals, 1 is HD and 1 is not. (Isn't that the way it works with a 2 line system??) My point is that HD Satellite will work well over component wiring, while the non-HD signal will work well over composite wiring.

2) The HD Sat receiver, non-HD Sat receiver, and DVD player will remain in the media room. Thus, all components are in the media room. Those in the media room can control the components. However, a programmable (macro) remote will control both of the Sat receivers and DVD player, so that my wife and I can control the a/v from anyroom in the house. The remote will probably be RF, with RF --> IR converters in front of the devices. No wiring is needed for controling the video.

3) Viewers in other rooms may control the non-HD Satellite TV with a generic RF remote. Audio will run thru the same coax as video.

4) Ideally, an audio/video switcher would be desired, but not sure they are affordable for HD (component) signals. This switch would handle 2 or 3 HD input signals, and have somewhere from 4 to 8 output zones with each zone having remote control access over their zone. I haven't seen such a device. And if it does exist, is it affordable for HD!?

Controlling all this stuff is the key. If you just want distributed audio, it's not so expensive. When you start adding video and other functionality that it starts to get really expensive. You then have to control the video sources, switch video outputs... and controlling all of that becomes the problem.

Agreed. Installing a signle cat5 wire for control wouldn't be that hard or expensive. Getting it to work, that's the hard part!


So, the wiring I think I need:
1 Cat5e for XBox
1 Cat5e for Internet
1 Cat5e for controls (may or may not need this)
3 RG6 for component video
16/4 or 14/4 audio to some rooms (lol, no, not romex :rolleyes:)
1 RG6 for composite video/audio

I'm not sure how the streaming video/audio or seperate audio (like from iTunes) would integrate into this system.

Thanks Gid!

[giddonah]

Quoted from HERE (http://www.xbox.com/en-US/support/connecttolive/xbox360/homenetworking/advanced.htm):

For wired networks: Wired connectivity usually provides the most consistent and reliable performance for your network. When connecting to a wired network, you can use standard Ethernet (Cat5) cables to connect your Xbox 360 console to a modem, router, gateway, hub, or switch. The Xbox 360 console's auto-sensing port frees you from worrying about whether to use standard Ethernet cables or special crossover cables.

It looks like you'd be ok with a switch. But hey, I'd pull the extra cat5 in my house too :)

Ok, lol, so you're not retarded enough to think of romex for speakers. You never know!

The distributed audio sounds good. The video I'm not sure about. The matrix will be expensive. If you're planning on sending the audio/video over one coax, that will be a complication with the switching of the component video sources.

I'll ask some guys at work, but I'm thinking you'll be needing at least a good matrix and some cat5 to each room for control. I'll get back to you tomorrow.

[David]

Hey Gid -

That quote is for XBox 360. I'm looking at hooking up a traditional XBox. I've looked around, and I think we can use a switch, router, or hub. Even so, the traffic can be quite intense, so I'd rather not burden it with internet traffic, or with streaming video (PC -> TVs), etc. I think the XBox 360 will have even greater bandwidth.

I figure the matrix would be expensive. It was intended so I wouldn't have to pull the extra a/v wires. I know RG6 isn't all that expensive, but just the extra cost for speaker wire is enough to aim for 1 signal rather than 2. Since the matrix will be costly, and so is speaker wire, I'll go for 1 signal and run pvc to pull wires later.

I think installing some PVC would be the best choice. Don't you? We don't have basements and walls don't really line up on 2nd floor over 1st floor. So, I'm probably going to have to cut open drywall, drill holes, and run wires or pvc thru joists (hopefully between joists more than actually thru them). I don't want to do this again.

If I need to cut into joists, studs, and top plates, should I use a hole saw bit, or a large spade bit? I have a 1" hole saw bit, but I was thinking of running 1" or 1.5" pvc, so I need a new bit, anyway.

[giddonah]

Yeah, just assumed a 360. I play pc games anyway ;)

spade bits work good for studs, auger bits are a little better and self-feeding bits are best. If you can run conduit, do it unless you plan on moving within the next 5-8 years.

Check out http://www.fourpair.com/ for speaker wire. Their prices are pretty good, and free shipping over $80.

We get our wire from liberty wire & cable. I'm not sure what they'd charge you, but their stuff is pretty good.

[David]

They have a good price on Cat5e. With that price, I won't be going with Cat6.

I do have a self-feeding bit now that you mention it, and it works great. I'll get a bigger one for the PVC holes. Do the extensions work well? This page came up in my google search: http://allprotools.com/store/page140.html

Which types of connectors work best for the coax? I probably don't need waterproof (sheesh, I hope not!), but it seems like there are numerous variations/qualities of F connectors, plus BNC connectors.

For component rg6, do I need shielded coax or will unshielded work? What about quad shielded?

What types of connectors and wall plates do you use for speakers? Banana jacks or something else?

Thanks!

[giddonah]

OK. I want to be able to distribute HDDVD (or BlueRay DVDs) and HD Satellite (or HD Cable). I may also want to stream HD signals from the PC.

Here are my current thoughts:

1) the Satellite TV will always be on. Also, there will be an HD Satellite receiver and a non-HD Satellite receiver. So if we have DirecTV with 2 signals, 1 is HD and 1 is not. (Isn't that the way it works with a 2 line system??) My point is that HD Satellite will work well over component wiring, while the non-HD signal will work well over composite wiring.

2) The HD Sat receiver, non-HD Sat receiver, and DVD player will remain in the media room. Thus, all components are in the media room. Those in the media room can control the components. However, a programmable (macro) remote will control both of the Sat receivers and DVD player, so that my wife and I can control the a/v from anyroom in the house. The remote will probably be RF, with RF --> IR converters in front of the devices. No wiring is needed for controling the video.

3) Viewers in other rooms may control the non-HD Satellite TV with a generic RF remote. Audio will run thru the same coax as video.

4) Ideally, an audio/video switcher would be desired, but not sure they are affordable for HD (component) signals. This switch would handle 2 or 3 HD input signals, and have somewhere from 4 to 8 output zones with each zone having remote control access over their zone. I haven't seen such a device. And if it does exist, is it affordable for HD!?



Agreed. Installing a signle cat5 wire for control wouldn't be that hard or expensive. Getting it to work, that's the hard part!


So, the wiring I think I need:
1 Cat5e for XBox
1 Cat5e for Internet
1 Cat5e for controls (may or may not need this)
3 RG6 for component video
16/4 or 14/4 audio to some rooms (lol, no, not romex :rolleyes:)
1 RG6 for composite video/audio

I'm not sure how the streaming video/audio or seperate audio (like from iTunes) would integrate into this system.

Thanks Gid!

Do you not have a component output on your SD receiver? The big problem with what you want to do is that you're not only distributing video, but you're distributing different types of video. The responses I got at work included full-on control with programming. Some a/v receivers will convert a composite signal to component, but if you can avoid the composite signal you'll save a lot of money. One work around is not to use a matrix for the composite signal, but merely to send it everywhere with a splitter (and amplifier?) and just use the tv input selector.

Ideally, you'll be looking at one of these:
http://www.hometech.com/video/componentswitch.html

You can use the RF remote, but I question the range of the thing. The most reliable solution would be to go IR with receivers:
http://www.hometech.com/infrared/rcvrs.html#CV-IR2202

You can try to use RF extenders, but I'd personally go the IR route for a multi-room setup. If you have the RF remote and it works well in all the rooms you will be using it in, then go for it. To do an IR receiver you just snip off the minijack and connect it to a simple 1sp wire (we often just run a cat5 and use only one pair). At the other end you either plug the wires into a phoenix block or reconnect the minijack, depending on what the control unit has for a connector.

For what you want to do it really cries for a control system like crestron, amx or something.

If you want to include iTunes into your distributed audio, you have few choices without getting into some kind of control. You can simply plug in your Ipod/PC as an input on your distribution amp with a minijack-rca cable. That means you can either leave it on shuffle, or you'll have to go back to that room to change songs. You can carry the ipod around and plug it in in whichever room you're in, but that means you just added like 4-5 source inputs, unless you just have one pair of rca's split to 5 locations with a minijack at each location. I have no idea what would happen if you plugged in two Ipods at the same time though.

Oh yeah, and if your wire list is for what goes to each room, you don't need the 1 rg6 for composite, you can use one of the rg6's you have for component, again, unless you have two tv's in that room that will be used simultaneously. Plus, how will you distribute the audio for the video? Will you want that audio to go to the distributed audio speakers or to the tv's speakers? Will it be analog audio or digital audio?

[David]

Do you not have a component output on your SD receiver? The big problem with what you want to do is that you're not only distributing video, but you're distributing different types of video. The responses I got at work included full-on control with programming. Some a/v receivers will convert a composite signal to component, but if you can avoid the composite signal you'll save a lot of money. One work around is not to use a matrix for the composite signal, but merely to send it everywhere with a splitter (and amplifier?) and just use the tv input selector.

That's fine. I'm okay with sending the composite signal across with splitter and amp. I figured that would be the case. I don't want to send it across one of the component lines, because I want each room to choose what they want to watch. Sending composite across one of the component lines would mess up the component signal to the other rooms.




Ideally, you'll be looking at one of these:
http://www.hometech.com/video/componentswitch.html

The only issue with this one is it is a 6in 4out. I'd prefer something like 3in or 4in and 8out. But I'll search around. At $700+, I won't be buying it this year.

You can use the RF remote, but I question the range of the thing. The most reliable solution would be to go IR with receivers:
http://www.hometech.com/infrared/rcvrs.html#CV-IR2202


What are your thoughts on the Buffalo Electronics brand? For an IR system, do you think they'd be fine for a home system?

You can try to use RF extenders, but I'd personally go the IR route for a multi-room setup. If you have the RF remote and it works well in all the rooms you will be using it in, then go for it. To do an IR receiver you just snip off the minijack and connect it to a simple 1sp wire (we often just run a cat5 and use only one pair). At the other end you either plug the wires into a phoenix block or reconnect the minijack, depending on what the control unit has for a connector.
The Buffalo brand is more in line with budget, so I'll probably design the system to have an IR distribution system. It should allow for a greater number of remote choices, given the remotes don't need to be RF capable.

For what you want to do it really cries for a control system like crestron, amx or something.

Creston is way out of my price range. I've never heard of amx, but mentioned next to crestron, my guess is they are too expensive for me, too.



If you want to include iTunes into your distributed audio, you have few choices without getting into some kind of control. You can simply plug in your Ipod/PC as an input on your distribution amp with a minijack-rca cable. That means you can either leave it on shuffle, or you'll have to go back to that room to change songs. You can carry the ipod around and plug it in in whichever room you're in, but that means you just added like 4-5 source inputs, unless you just have one pair of rca's split to 5 locations with a minijack at each location. I have no idea what would happen if you plugged in two Ipods at the same time though.

I'll have to think about the computer audio. I don't have an iPod.



Oh yeah, and if your wire list is for what goes to each room, you don't need the 1 rg6 for composite, you can use one of the rg6's you have for component, again, unless you have two tv's in that room that will be used simultaneously. Plus, how will you distribute the audio for the video? Will you want that audio to go to the distributed audio speakers or to the tv's speakers? Will it be analog audio or digital audio?

Definitely seperate wires (mentioned above). Audio for the component line will be via 14 or 16/4 wire. Audio for the composite line is included in the composite signal and will only go thru the TV's audio.

[giddonah]

You might be able to do some of what you want with an A/V receiver and a Universal MX850 type of setup. With this, you can put IR receivers (and I stand corrected, you use three wires of the cat5 from the emitter back to the receiving block) in each room and control the whole setup via that and a matrix.

The problems you'll face:

You want to watch multiple sources in multiple rooms simultaneously.
You want to distribute video and audio.
You want the audio from a video source to go through the dist. audio speakers.
Money.


To do all that you want you need control. You can do some of it, but not all without too much effort and cost. If you don't go with a full on control system, you'll be faced with hacking together equipment and it'll be a bit hokey. Whatever way you decide to do it, you'll have to know how everything is going to go together in the end before you pull any wires, since one change later will mean you probably won't have the right wires in place. The fix for that is to run lots of everything to every room and figure out later what you'll use. Look at Extron video switchers. You could combine that with a "simple" MX850 remote setup to control stuff, but you'll still be faced with multiple simultaneous users. This stuff is cool, but our installs run on the order of $50k for what you are looking to do and up to $500k for full control of every electronic device in a home. Some guys on AVSForum have done their control diy, but it's taken them months to learn to program it themselves. In the end it cost them nearly $20k and 700hrs to do a job that would cost $50k, but that's for a little more than you're looking to do.

And, if you want to run the video's audio to a tv, you have to run in at line level, not at speaker level over 14/4. For that you need some kind of 2sp with a good jacket so it can survive the pre-wire, or you can run that over two rg59's with rca ends.

[David]

To do all that you want you need control. You can do some of it, but not all without too much effort and cost.

OK. So let's have a reality check for me! What are the limitations to keep it simple and cost-friendly.
:confused:


It looks like that video matrix can include audio, but at $700, I'm hoping to avoid it.

Perhaps the master bedroom (downstairs) and the media room (upstairs) can be HD (component), while all other rooms are composite. That would reduce the cost of cable until I want them to be of higher quality.

So the other bedrooms, being composite, could have 2 composites in the wall which are connected to a powered amplifiers.

[giddonah]

Ok, video distribution on the cheap:

Modulate.



Modulation is taking video/audio and placing it on an RF signal (cable tv) as its own channel. You can make your dvd player channel 132, your HD satellite 134, and your SD satellite 136. You then feed this throughout the house just like your cable service. You can combine these channels onto your regular cable service feed with a combiner, or just have the three channels. You then change the channel on the tv to 134 and use an IR repeater to control the sat receiver in another room. One room is on 134, another is on 132 and a third room is on 136. Each room can control their source independently via IR. You can either have the factory remotes (which prevents two people controlling the same unit) or you can use standard programmable remotes.

Upside: Cheap. Modulator will run less than $200 for 4 channels. You only have to run one RG6 and one cat5 to each room. Easy to setup (that's actually an understatement). Did I mention that it's cheap?

Modulator (http://www.audio-discounters.com/5445.html)
Kit (http://www.amazon.com/SmartDisk-291-KIT-HIDDEN-LINK-8165/dp/B0007P5KBW/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-3357123-2048003?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1184380086&sr=8-1) for getting IR codes to the equipment.
These (http://www.amazon.com/SmartDisk-291-10-TABLETOP-SENSOR-8110/dp/B0007P5KAI/ref=sr_1_10/002-3357123-2048003?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1184380369&sr=8-10) go in the rooms, you'll get one with the kit, and you'll need one more per room.

You can go up to 200' on cat5 for the IR receivers.

Downside: It's cheap. You can have someone in the living room stop your movie or change channels on you in the bedroom. The video quality isn't going to be the greatest. Forget about HD, but since you're doing the modulation locally, it can be very clear if it's setup right. You might need some amplification/attenuation depending on how much you split the coax and how far they run. A far tv might need amplification while a near tv might need attenuation. If it doesn't work great on the first shot, you'll need a db meter to troubleshoot it.


If you can live with all that, you'll still have HD locally in your media room. Stepping up to sending HD to another location will start to bring the cost up quickly.


HD distribution on the "cheap" still means a few thousand dollars. For this you'll need a matrix, unless you only want to distribute one signal. Say you can live with modulating everything but can't live without your HD sat tv. You run 3 coax (expensive rg59 would work for less than 200' or so) and something for the audio (YCLL (http://www.mountsandmore.com/Liberty-Cable-23-YCLL-SIAM-LT1528.html) or a 2sp if you're careful when pulling it, or even another 2 rg59's) to each room. You can also pull RGB-Mini (http://www.mountsandmore.com/Liberty-Cable-RGB5-Mini-750OHM-COAX-LT1300.html) and use 3 for video and 2 for audio. That stuff isn't good for more than 75' or so though. You'll need a splitter and you can control it over the same IR setup. This is a little more cumbersome since you have to change inputs on the tv, but this isn't much more than just changing channels. If your remote is fancy enough, you can make macros that will make sure you're on the right channel/input when you hit dvd or sat.

These solutions will work, but you won't be getting too many design awards for it.

Termination will also be an issue. We use liberty's connectors which requires a kit (http://www.ramelectronics.net/html/connecTec.html#pac) to strip and crimp the ends on.

[David]

Those cables are extremely expensive! It's almost cheaper to buy an HD DVD player for each room and get a more expensive satellite hookup.

As you said, I'll have to look into the specific hardware first.

[bosley]

Right. It's not streaming as streaming implies some form of encryption or cyphering or whatever the right word is. This was plain video.

And it does work with 5e.

The box was by a top name mfr, Crestron I believe and the technology requires one on each side of the signal and is limited to 1 output. So I believe he was saying to run multiple TVs with this technology would be apprx a grand, but also that it's not really feasible for multiple tv installations.

Bottom line: We're probably going to rewire our house (production builder, terrible service, not many ports in our house) with 3xCat6+4Coax.
1 Cat6 = XBox (not XBox live)
1 Cat6 = Internet
1 Cat6 audio
3 Coax = Component Video
1 Coax = Composite Video
We may run another Cat6 as extra for future communication needs. Installing condiut at this point does not sound fun to me. Do you know if retrofitting a home w/ PVC or SmurfPipe for low-vo is easy? I would guess not.

wouldn't it be easier to use a wireless router for the Internet, XBox and audio? You can use various types of wireless adapters.

[giddonah]

easier, yes. Better? That argument has been mulled over in another thread. Wireless isn't as reliable as wires, and the bandwidth is substantially less. Yes, you can use wireless adapters, but we try our best to never use them unless there isn't any other option.