stormwater management issue...point me in the right direction

[canooten]

If this is in the wrong section, please point me in the right direction.....

I'm in the middle of a county government two-step and need some help finding the right professional to give me some advice.

My road was recently relocated about 60 feet further away from my lot due to the construction of a public school on my road. The issue is that in addition to it being further away (which is a good thing), it's also about 8 feet further up a hill (the bad thing).
My lot is somewhat low lying and has always handled some cross drainage from under the street in a county maintained ditch on my property line. The problem since the construction is that since I'm so far down the "new" hill, I'm getting horrible stormwater runoff onto my property (the dead zone between my property line and the new location of the road is county land currently) during any measurable rainfall.
The county department responsible has been very helpful in trying different solutions to route the water away from my property, but so far they have been unsuccessful. It seems to date the fixes they've used have come from a handful of department and crew heads tossing around ideas and trying them. I've asked that a professional be hired to draft a fix, but they don't want to spend the money.

What type of pro am I looking for here? I may wind up getting a plan drawn up on my own and presenting that to the county for implementation, but I'm just not sure who I should contact? Is a civil engineer who I want? Basically I need someone that can look at the current lay of the land and figure out the best way to grade and drain this "dead zone" at the top of my lot to route stormwater into the drain ditch on my side property line.

Any suggestions of which way to turn would be appreciated.

[Mike44]

A good landscaper would know what to do - I do stress the word 'good' here (not just any guy with a Bob Cat or tractor) because when doing large jobs, they have to know where the water will flow especially if they're doing any grading. If one came to your place, he/she should be able to assess the lay of the land to propose a solution. Getting involved with the civial servants will take ages - trust me on that one ;)

Now for my input: Without a picture or diagram to look at right now, I would have to say that you might be looking at a little bit of grading that would have to be done. Before giving a full blown explanation, I'd better ask if you have any low point in your property (like a ditch or swail) located away from your house? Even like a forest or field far away that you wouldn't mind diverting water to. I know you said your house is located in a low spot already, but any lower spots behind your house if the land continues to slope??? If there is, let me know and I'll write up more for a solution here; I'll even show you a picture of what we have as well if I can find it. I would write it now, but I want to be as detailed as possible for you but it would be pointless if there isn't any other low spot.

Michael

[concretemasonry]

Hire a civil engineer to work for you to get the best solutions. Especially true if you are only talking to the head of a road crew.

They will have to listen and he can point out where they created problems and alternate solutions.

If he comes up with a workable solution, they may even be able to incorporate it the project without an embarassment.

A word of caution - If they only changed the flow of the water on your property and did not add additional water, they would only be responsible for any erosion and regrading and not for diverting water to someone else's property unless it is easier to handle it on county land instead of yours.

[canooten]

Basically I'm just trying to find out who I should contact to draw up a plan in case the fixes the county is trying don't pan out (as has been the case the last year or so). I know the county had to have a hydro survey done before this project was started, so they have to know the impact this would have on the adjoining properties. I may have to start by getting those plans.

Hire a civil engineer to work for you to get the best solutions. Especially true if you are only talking to the head of a road crew.

That's what I'm looking for, although I'm not just dealing with the road crew. The road project has been done for several months now and we've been learning the impact the added runoff is having on us over that time.
I'm actually dealing with as high a county officials as I can....commissioner, county manager etc. They judged that SPLOST Management is ultimately responsible for fixing the issue (if you're not familiar with the term, SPLOST is a local option sales tax that is used for school and road construction in Georgia). So I'm dealing with the head of SPLOST and their field guys and engineers. Not dealing too much with the work crews, although I try to talk to them and stay on their good side.

My lot slopes up from my house and used to, the road was about 75 feet from my house. It was probably about a 5 foot rise +-. Now that the road is another 60 or 70 feet further away, it added another 5 feet to the rise and more room for water to run. As you can imagine, stormwater running off of a slope like that, half of which has no vegetation on it....it gets to be a good flow.
They've tried different fixes right at my property line (which is where the old road was) such as ditches to move the water to my side property line. There's a large county maintained swale on that side line that moves water into the woods to the lowest spot in the area (off of and behind my lot).
At this point, the simple ditch hasn't fixed it, so they've basically put in a storm sewer system across the front of mine and my neighbors property. Buried pipe and catch basins spaced across our front line where the old road was with a graduated ditch to direct the water to the catch basins. They seem to be pulling out some stops at this point, but I have to be prepared just in case this doesn't work. If I still have issues after this, I plan to hire a pro to survey the area and draft a fix that I can present to the county, because they have been hesitant to go that far. They just keep trying different fixes, although they seem to be on the right track this time. We'll just see.

[Mike44]

Okay, I see what you're getting at here. Sounds like they've already attempted something that I was going to suggest here: the catch basins and buried pipe. Does it look like anything in these attached pictures here? If they do, and they're not diverting the water effectively, then some re-grading may be required. Were these catch basins just plopped down in the ground across the driveway or have they been placed in strategic low spots to collect the water that flows to them? That is the key to get them to work. If the driveway has a continuous slope right down to your house and no low spots around the basins, they will not work. They may need to create a low spot in your driveway about 20ft in front of your garage with the drain in the centre and the output pipe leading to the ditch (or swail or whatever low spot you mentioned above). See the little drawing I attached as well.

This solution will definately work if the majority of the stormwater is coming from the driveway. With my system, I stupidly blocked the end of the outflow pipe in the ditch with a little PVC end cap vent to block critters from going up it (I don't know why - I thought it was a good idea at the time), and during a huge downpour, our lawn started to flood around the catch basin! I saw that the vent I put on wasn't letting water out quick enough that the basin was collecting! As soon as I pulled it off the end, all the water that was collecting on our lawn over the catch basin was gone in a matter of seconds and never collected up again for the rest of the storm. So it is extremely effective at removing water quickly if installed right.

Would you mind drawing up a little sketch of your property and where the locations of the existing catch basins are? (doesn't have to be fancy at all) just so I can see what you're talking about? I might be able to suggest something as well for when you talk to a professional in your area about the problem.

Mike

[canooten]

I see what you did at your place....and it's similar to what is being done at mine, the county is just doing it on a much larger scale because of the type of materials they're used to working with.

I drew some quick sketches, one to show what we had before the construction, the other to show the current state of things.

Old config....

http://www.vicnmic.com/images/grade_old.jpg

Current config...

http://www.vicnmic.com/images/grade_new.jpg

In the 2nd drawing, you can see the amount of area that has basically been added to our front yard. It's more than double the original area and the vast majority of it is a pretty steep slope from the road. My problem hasn't just been water down the driveway, it's been all the way across my front property line.
First, they tried a simple ditch with pipes under the driveway at the location of the old road to catch all water running from the new hill and direct it to the swale in the drawing. In theory this should have worked, but during a very heavy rainfall, water runs down that new hill so fast, it simply skips the ditch and runs into my yard (and down my driveway) and it overwhelms the drainage in my yard and around the side of my house.

Currently, they have buried 16" metal pipe all along my front property line (and my neighbors to the right) that empties into the swale. Then they put a total of 4 catch basins in. One is not pictured on the drawing....it's further to the right next to my neighbors driveway. And these are full size, concrete, cylinder catch basins with the tops that have the slot drain at ground level. We're talking standard storm sewer stuff here.
They did depress the ground all along the top of the pipe and where the basins are. There's basically a ditch running above the pipe all across the property to slopes to the basins.
They also poured the driveway above the pipe and put grates in the driveway that drain into the pipes to catch any water that runs down the driveway.

Again, this is all done at the location of the old road....they're simply trying to keep any runoff from the "new yard" from getting into my existing yard. My current yard handles runoff pretty well in all but extreme situations, but this new hill and area in front of my yard was creating extreme situations during all but the lightest rains.

Hope this helps paint a clearer picture.

[Mike44]

Yeah, those drawings do help a lot just to visualize your property layout. I see what you mean how the water is now being channeled off the slope from the roadway.

One thing I want to ask, is the grade to the house going from a low lawn to a higher house, or a high lawn and down to the house? If it is the first case, then my personal opinion (based soley on the drawing only) would be only to focus on the steep grade and the old road location. Check out what I added onto your sketch there. Since the old road location is fairly level, I would keep it exactly at that level, and grade the area in front of it so that it is lower. In other words, the area outlined in red should be "scraped out" a bit. This way, the water can collect there and be directed towards the catch basin to the left, sort of like a swail. You could do this to the other side of the driveway as well if need be, and the drain across the driveway could take care of the water coming down it. I would suggest this only if the grade from the old road location to your house goes UP towards the house.

On the other hand, if the grade from the old road location to your house goes DOWN towards your house, I'm really not sure what to suggest. I would have to have a look at a picture or something.

Mike

[canooten]

The grade from the current road to my house is a constant downhill grade. It levels off a bit at the location of the old road, then slopes down again towards the house.
The yard does level out about 25-30 feet from the house and does slope up slightly from about 15' out to my foundation. That lowest spot is where the normal yard runoff flows to, then runs around the house and through the back yard into the land behind me where it disburses.
My big issues are when we get runoff from the old road location upward to the current road. That runoff overwhelms my yard and the runoff makes it's way closer and closer to my foundation. That is my biggest issue since I have a basement.

What you added to the sketch seems to be what is being done right now. The are planning to put a depressed area that follows the curvature of my driveway to catch water running down the hill and redirect it into the ditch over the pipe, then on to the catch basin. We'll just see if it works.

[Mike44]

Sounds to me like they are on the right track! Best of luck, and I hope it all works out fine for you!!

Mike

[canooten]

Here's hoping.

I'll update if they screw anything else up :)

[handyman4life]

From a Contruction manager's viewpoint... Hire a lawyer and have them talk to the county. They'll fix it!

[canooten]

The fix I described above has been in for a year and seems to have solved the issue. My problem now is getting them to come out do the finish work (seed and straw). They did it initially, but the work crew left the ground in such a mess (unlevel, tons of rock in the topsoil etc) that I asked them to smooth it out. they did that, but never reseeded besides some sod in the immediate area of the pip and basins. So this year has seen the bare area wash and rut with every rain so it's somewhat of a mess. There's some scrub grass growing on it, but nowhere near what should be. If I can get them back out to smooth the ground and replant so some grass will grow I'll be happy, but they're hemming and hawing about how much "extra money" they've spent at my location and are refusing to finish the job.

Government...go figure.

[Mike44]

Aww man, well at least it seems to be fixed! As for the grass though, it sounds kinda like what happened at my place. They raked the top soil, seeded, and it downpoured that night, so all the seeds got washed away and the lawn turned into clumps of weeds and rutted, packed soil. They ended up not coming back to fix any of it, but I don't know how eager you would be, but I had to re-finish it myself. It took a while, but it was good exercise!!

Would you concider hydroseeding? I heard that for a larger area, it might be more costeffective as opposed to taking the chance with seeds - especially on a slope. Or just as long as there is some straw at least covering the seeds to protect against downpours.

Mike

[canooten]

Aww man, well at least it seems to be fixed! As for the grass though, it sounds kinda like what happened at my place. They raked the top soil, seeded, and it downpoured that night, so all the seeds got washed away and the lawn turned into clumps of weeds and rutted, packed soil. They ended up not coming back to fix any of it, but I don't know how eager you would be, but I had to re-finish it myself. It took a while, but it was good exercise!!

Would you concider hydroseeding? I heard that for a larger area, it might be more costeffective as opposed to taking the chance with seeds - especially on a slope. Or just as long as there is some straw at least covering the seeds to protect against downpours.

Mike

If the land belonged to me, I would have already done it, but it's county owned land and I have more to do than level/seed/straw their land. Granted, the runoff from that land impacts mine, so it's in my best interest, but I've already had to spend enough of my own money fixing issues that earlier county construction issues have caused on my land (they built 3 schools on the land across the street from my house, so I had 3 years of problems)....not spending another cent on it. Only other money I'll spend is on a lawyer if they refuse to do the work.