hipped roof load distribution and bracing

[SickPuppy]

Hi. I'm new here and I know nothing. Please help me learn?

I have purchased a house built in 1967. It is a split level with two roofing styles, a hipped roof over the upper level and a modified hipped roof over the lower level.

The roof is framed up with 2x6s. Is this considered a 'heavy' roof (as opposed to a 'light' roof)? I don't know the pitch, but it isn't much, It looks maybe 6 feet for every 15 feet?

The lower level is living room/kitchen/den. One end is hipped while the other is ...regular pitch that abutts the upperlevel exterior wall. The complete span (to outer walls) on the lower is 30x26. Rafters (2x6s) are running the 30 feet distance. The 'regular pitch' top beam is running the 26 feet distance. (sorry I don't know the correct terms here.)

There is one wall, abutting 26' exterior wall, approximately 10 feet long, running parallell to the rafters. Over this wall and above the rafters is a perpendicular beam (2x6) about 9-10 feet from exterior wall -- it is carrying bracing for the roof.

There is a second wall, I'm gonna call 'wall 2', abutting 30' exterior wall out from 26' exterior wall about 11'. This wall is approx. 15' long and runs perpendicular to rafters. Over this wall is bracing for roof sitting on the wall framing-- NO beam on rafters here.

Of course, :), I want to tear out both walls which would leave the space completely open. Can I put that bracing on wall 2 framing onto a beam like the other wall? Will that distribute weight properly/be strong enough? Or will it be too much weight on those rafters/too large a span? Do I need a header and if so mid way at the 15' mark or where?

Oh: I live in an area that is getting 1-2 winter ice storms and 1 to 3 snow storms with a max of maybe 10 inches of snow per storm melting off inbetween storms.

[Rich]

There are a lot of variables here that could be detrimental if not considered. I would suggest contacting an engineer... somebody that can go and see exactly what you have and design something accordingly. I hate to cop out on giving you an answer but it's just too complicated for me to give feedback from my computer.

[SickPuppy]

Thanks anyway.

I wish someone would jump in here anyway and tell me the variables to look for or at least a good spot where to learn about them or something other than 'consult an engineer'. I KNOW pulling those walls out is possible, and yes of course I know the consequences of it done wrong/without proper support (if I didn't I wouldn't be looking for info, would I?) *sigh*

[bkrahmer]

I can't visualize things by description, or else I might offer an opinion. Like Rich said, though, you can spend $300 or whatever and have an engineer come out and look at it, or you can risk overbuilding it by $500, or you can underbuild it and end up with $10,000 in damages or loss of life. What's your cheapest option?

[Joe Bartok]

SickPuppy, here is a link to some interesting reading. This might give you some insight as to why nobody wants to touch your question: Hip and Valley Rafters (http://forums.jlconline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15186&highlight=structural+rafters).

Have fun trying to muddle through that. I can't really follow what it's all about and I doubt too many others can.

Consult an engineer is the honest answer to your question. Not likely many forum members have the education or understanding to asses your situation. And will those who can do the engineering be able to gain a complete understanding of all the variables for your particular case by posting messages over the Internet?

If anyone were to "answer" your questions through this or any other forum, my advice is ... run!

[SickPuppy]

Thank you, Joe, for the link. That is help.

I am a bit miffed over the attitude 'don't help at all or the roof might cave in and I might be held accountable in some way.'

Just because someone gives an opinion/advice in NO way means I'm going to run out and do whatever they say, and no one should do such a stupid thing. Gather information, reseach, think it out, get advice, make an educated decision, take action. Even engineer's make mistakes so there is no garranty their advice will be 'right' either. In fact, their advice will come with a warning that releases them from any liability.

How is one supposed to learn anything on these forums if no one will give ANY advice or direction on how or where to learn? This isn't the first forum I've found this attitude on, nor is it the first subject. Most subject forums will only really help those exactly like themselves (aka those that already know the same information.)

The attitudes I've found make no sense to me at all. We used to be a nation that helped each other, now we let the other struggle as we sit and watch. I, for one, will never ever die in defense of that type of a people.

One other tidbit I've learned: Someone on another forum told me, after I pushed about a rule of thumb for span distances, that there are span charts available. That was helpful.

Seems you've stuck your neck out just giving me a link. So thanks for that. I DO appreciate it very much.

[Richard A Hetzel]

In fact, their advice will come with a warning that releases them from any liability.
Sir, I beg to strongly differ. I have practiced architecture for almost fifty years, and I have never once issued any work with such a disclaimer. Even if I did, I believe any court would still hold me responsible for my work. I take the responsibility that my license to practice places on me very seriously. I do not know of any licensed design professional who would issue work with a disclaimer such at that.
Even engineer's make mistakes so there is no garranty their advice will be 'right' either
Engineers and architects, being human beings, do indeed occasionally make mistakes, but they are very rare. Any design professional worth his salt will double- and triple-check his work, or have a colleague check it for him, before he issues it to a client.
This isn't the first forum I've found this attitude on,
Maybe then you should think about why that is! The reason is that no one on a forum can see and carefully examine your structure to determine what exact load will be carried on whatever structural member you're talking about, so how can you seriously expect anyone to perform structural engineering for you, based only on your very possibly faulty description. Also, I am licensed in New York. I don't know where you live, but if it's anywhere else but New York, I would be liable for possibly practicing architecture in your state without a license. Penalties for that are severe.
Someone on another forum told me, after I pushed about a rule of thumb for span distances, that there are span charts available
All the span charts in the world won't help you if you don't get the loads right, and the span charts wont tell you how to assemble multiple members, or how to detail the end bearing conditions. Most span charts are for joists and rafters, or headers, but not for beams. The span charts will also fail to help you select the type of member required for your application. Is steel best? Glulam beam? Multiple LVLs? Conventinal sawn lumber? That's where professional advice comes in. No one knows the answer to your question. We determine the answer by calculating the moment, and then checking our selection for shear and deflection, and end bearing requirements. We also determine that there is a full load path from the new structural member through your building to the earth. It isn't rocket science, and it only takes a few minutes, but that is the correct way to determine the characteristics of a structural member. Anything else is nothing but a guess.

Now, do you see why several people said that they can't answer your question, and to retain the services of a qualified design professional? Do you understand why you see the same attitude on other forums? We are not all lazy, and we have no secrets to keep. If I were lazy, I would not have invested over a half-hour of my time just to reply to your post. My time is worth $110 an hour, but I'm not sending you a bill. I am only trying to help you, and others who may read this, understand why design professionals exist, and why we are licensed by our states, and where you will find the correct answer to your question.

[SickPuppy]

lol the words 'thinking they're godlike' comes to mind......

It's nice that YOU may be highly moral and capable (at least you think yourself so) but that in no way means all engineers are.

No use arguing the point further.....

Thank you for your input, even if it was somewhat redundant of what was already stated (don't mean to sound...well mean. Just stating my view.)

[Richard A Hetzel]

even if it was somewhat redundant of what was already stated
As if yours isn't...resistance to learning is a terrible waste of brainpower. You just go on thinking all professionals are crooks, and you know better yourself. Just don't call us when your beam sags.

[Don_P]

"I wish someone would jump in here anyway and tell me the variables to look for or at least a good spot where to learn about them or something other than 'consult an engineer'."

"Hip and Valley Rafters.
Have fun trying to muddle through that."
That was a good thread that was followed by several articles in their magazine.

"We determine the answer by calculating the moment, and then checking our selection for shear and deflection, and end bearing requirements. We also determine that there is a full load path from the new structural member through your building to the earth."
I would add check bending. These are some of the variables you need to understand and correctly quantify, there is much info online to help you study.

Based on your demonstrated level of knowledge, the fact that you have at no point come back with "I understand this". It looks to me that people have pointed you in the right direction to start studying.

Little pup, I decided you were mean after your second post, your moniker fits well. "The attitudes I've found make no sense to me at all. We used to be a nation that helped each other, now we let the other struggle as we sit and watch. I, for one, will never ever die in defense of that type of a people." Why do I doubt that a tail tucked running pup would ever defend me. Being mean and abusive is probably a poor technique to use when soliciting help, the "attitude" here is all yours. Sit down, shut up, quit whining and study. When you have studied long enough, you will possibly then see the wisdom in the advice that was kindly given you.

[SickPuppy]

Gosh, you lot don't have a problem with giving insults, do you? Look how many jumped in here as soon as I complained a bit. Like I said about not wanting to die for the likes of you.....

Joe and Rich at least gave their honest opinions without cutting and I thank them for that. The rest of you just gave your sh$#.

BTW, the moniker has to do with being a disabled vet.

[Rich]

Speaking for myself here.. I believe this is one of the more helpful forums out there. There are many people here who take time out of their busy schedules (I know mine is busy) to provide answers to peoples questions. But every once in awhile there is a situation where it's just too complicated to give an answer let alone decent direction. If you had a few dozen pictures and some plans that we could look at I would certainly provide at least an idea.
What one person sees in person is a whole lot different from what another person sees when explained in words, which happens to be the case here. It could be a very simple solution but the situation gets muddled when there are so many layers to what exists.

[SickPuppy]

Yes, pictures would help as well as more detail. With that tho, the problem is I'm not yet in the house to be able to take the pictures! lol. In a few more weeks....

Rich, your post is so .....non-judgemental of me and I wanted to thank you for that. As I said, you and Joe...a cut above it seems :) I probably won't be back though, because of the others.

[Rich]

That's too bad because the ones that did post here are some of the better, more informed, helpful individuals on this website. I wouldn't let this one instance deter you from receiving further help on other matters. Quite honestly, what you have described above is a difficult situation with pictures and even more difficult to "picture" without them.

[Roy J.]

All this commentary and I'm still trying to figure out what "wall 2" is.

[Richard A Hetzel]

That's exactly the point. The description is impossible to turn into a complete three-dimensional understanding of the problem, and that's why it is best answered by a qualified design professional who can visit the site, examine the building thoroughly, take all relevant conditions into account, and suggest a solution.

Methinks the poster was seeking free professional advice, and cannot understand why no professional in his right mind would offer it. In the first place, it's how we make our living, and giving our services for free is not in our own best interest. Second, I wonder if the poster would give two or three hous of his time at whatever he does, for free, particularly if there is a life-safety issue involved. Third, I suspect the poster thinks that we are all walking around with solutions to problems like his in our heads, and does not understand what is involved in solving such problems.

DonP: moment IS bending. Same thing.

[Joe Bartok]

Nice post baadman28! Edit ... correction! ... that should be pluralised to "posts" since you've been very active, with a total of eleven posts so far, in more than one forum on this board! Googling "baadman28" shows that you are also active in a wide variety of different forums on the Internet ... it seems you are a person of many interests!

Using Yahoo! as the search engine returned more examples of your posts, for emample, here's one in the vb-hacks board (http://www.vb-hacks.com/forum/showthread.php?p=119#post119). I would like to post more links but it seems you've been banned from a rather large number of bulletin boards. I can't imagine why ... :rolleyes:

You "support" is appreciated. Now, can you translate the text in the hyperlink for us? I've attached a screen shot with the characters in question highlighted so the other forum members can view it as well. :D

[Rich]

What baadman? Poof - he's gone.
Thanks for the notification Joe.

[Joe Bartok]

Probably a spambot anyway. A human spammer would have checked the source code and matched the color in the links exactly to the background (for whatever good that does). And it's best not to use the same screen name all over the Internet.

But then again I might be giving spammers credit for more intelligence than they deserve ...