Roof layout suggestions solicited........

[CaseyC]

I have a 40 year old, single story house with a hip roof all the way around. The roof layout is as shown in the graphic:
http://www.genealogy.jowestcorp.com/Graphic1.jpg

I have in the past had the center area enclosed as a sheltered patio with a flat roof integrated into the existing roof line. Unfortunately we always had leaks with the flat roof.

I would like to enclose this area now (i.e. pour a slab tied into the existing foundation) and make a large family room that opens to the pool.

I want to stay away from a flat roof. Could anyone offer suggestions as to how to tie into the existing roof???

Thanks,
Klaus Cook
Houston, Texas

[Joe Carola]

I have a 40 year old, single story house with a hip roof all the way around. The roof layout is as shown in the graphic:
http://www.genealogy.jowestcorp.com/Graphic1.jpg

I have in the past had the center area enclosed as a sheltered patio with a flat roof integrated into the existing roof line. Unfortunately we always had leaks with the flat roof.

I would like to enclose this area now (i.e. pour a slab tied into the existing foundation) and make a large family room that opens to the pool.

I want to stay away from a flat roof. Could anyone offer suggestions as to how to tie into the existing roof???

Thanks,
Klaus Cook
Houston, Texas

Klaus,

Strip the roof shingles down at the existing ridge and hip lines and jail a 2x on a flat and continue the common rafters to a new extended ridge and continue four new small hips to that ridge. In between the the two wings you'll have your family room wall resting on a foundation. On top of that wall you'll run long commons to the new extended ridge. This is how I would ask an Architect to design it if it were my house. I just framed something like this almost two years ago.

[Richard A Hetzel]

A simpler and less massive method would be to frame new rafters from the existing ridge over the space between the wings, forming a shed roof. The drawback to this method is that the slope of the shed roof may be too little, creating the need for a roof other than ordinary shingles.

http://www2.snapfish.com/slideshow/AlbumID=229732313/PictureID=5234541523/a=122549428_122549428/t_=122549428

[Joe Carola]

A simpler and less massive method would be to frame new rafters from the existing ridge over the space between the wings, forming a shed roof. The drawback to this method is that the slope of the shed roof may be too little, creating the need for a roof other than ordinary shingles.

http://www2.snapfish.com/slideshow/AlbumID=229732313/PictureID=5234541523/a=122549428_122549428/t_=122549428

Richard,

It is a lot easier to frame it the way you showed, but that will most likely give him maybe a 1/12 or 2/12 pitch roof. He's not looking for a flat (almost flat) roof. He wants something with shingles, that's why I didn't suggest the way you drew it.

[Richard A Hetzel]

Well, we don't know what pitch it will give...that depends on the length of the two wings, but in any case, it wouldn't be a flat roof. Framing up to a new ridge would make the roof very very massive, and I don't think it will look very good.

[Don_P]

Your's is still going to pose the same leaking hazard I think Richard. I like Joe's solution. It sounds like this is the back of the house, Joe isn't changing the mass from the street appreciably, after that it is "form follows function". Pop a hip dormer up there for the lifeguard if it needs help :).

[Richard A Hetzel]

Why would it leak? If the proper materials are used, and they are installed and flashed correctly, it would be as reliable or more so than a shingle roof, and we don't really know if it can't be a shingle roof. The other suggestion doubles the height of the roof as viewed from the street,,,I would call that a very appreciable change in the mass from the street. And yes, you could throw a dormer up there to make sure everybody looks up at the massive roof. If that doesn't work, you could always put a steeple on it.

[Joe Carola]

Why would it leak? If the proper materials are used, and they are installed and flashed correctly, it would be as reliable or more so than a shingle roof, and we don't really know if it can't be a shingle roof. The other suggestion doubles the height of the roof as viewed from the street,,,I would call that a very appreciable change in the mass from the street. And yes, you could throw a dormer up there to make sure everybody looks up at the massive roof. If that doesn't work, you could always put a steeple on it.

Yes, it wont leak, but why put an ugly roof with that low of a pitch where you can clearly see it when you can just extend the ridge to a least a 4/12?

Here's two more ways he can do it just by extending the ridge enough to get a 4/12 with shingles to match the house with.

1) The left side shows the ridge extended to a 4/12 and the ridge going out even with the existing ridge. Pluimb down on top of that and continue the back rafters until they hit the existing ridge creating a gable on each side with a rake trim and sing. From that point on will be where the valley starts.

2) The right side shows the ridge short to except the continuation of the existing front hip with a small hip on the front and a small hip on the back where the two roofs intersect at the same point of the valley on the left side. This way you don't have a small gable with rake trim and siding, you just have a continuation of two small hips, a small common and a couple jack rafters by continuing the existing roof.

I've done this both ways before. Some people like the little small gables and some people don't, they like the small continuation with the two small hips.

Alot of times you get an addition off the back of the house where the addition ridge is higher than the front existing ridge and you can frame it either way.

[Richard A Hetzel]

Who says the low-slope roof has to be ugly? We don't even know what the slope would be...it's possible it wouldn't be a low-slope roof.

[Joe Carola]

Who says the low-slope roof has to be ugly? We don't even know what the slope would be...it's possible it wouldn't be a low-slope roof.

I'm talking about not using roof shingles, not the roof itself. If the roof you're talking about is a 1/12 or 2/12, you can't have shingles right? All I'm saying is that if he does it your way it "MIGHT" be a low sloped roof that can't get shingles to match the existing shingles. My suggestions are if this is the case to raise the ridge to get at least a pitch that can get shingles.

[Richard A Hetzel]

Some of the shingles people are using these days are a whole lot uglier than a smooth membrane roof.

[Joe Carola]

Some of the shingles people are using these days are a whole lot uglier than a smooth membrane roof.

Maybe, but they will match the rest of the house instead of having a new roof with something different with a little bit of planning and framing it to get everything to match. Your going to be framing anyway, so why not add to the existing ridge to make it look right.

[Richard A Hetzel]

We don't know whether it would look right or not, without a study of the front, side and rear elevations. You can't just look at the roof alone. The roof is part of the composition of the house, and must be in proportion to the house. Raising the ridge could improve the appearance of the house, or it could be a disaster. We don't have enough information to know.

It is also true that a low-slope roof may not even be very visible at all. We don't know that unless we do sight-line studies from the back yard.

We don't know if it's a one-story or two-story house. We don't know if the original sketch was to scale, and we don't know the existing roof slopes. We don't know the length of the two wings. With so much unknown, no one is in position to say what will look right and what won't.

But we all have the right to suggest solutions, knowing that they are based on no real information. The owner's architect should be the one to make the final determination, taking all factors, not just the roof, into consideration.

[Joe Carola]

We don't know whether it would look right or not, without a study of the front, side and rear elevations. You can't just look at the roof alone. The roof is part of the composition of the house, and must be in proportion to the house. Raising the ridge could improve the appearance of the house, or it could be a disaster. We don't have enough information to know.

It is also true that a low-slope roof may not even be very visible at all. We don't know that unless we do sight-line studies from the back yard.

We don't know if it's a one-story or two-story house. We don't know if the original sketch was to scale, and we don't know the existing roof slopes. We don't know the length of the two wings. With so much unknown, no one is in position to say what will look right and what won't.

But we all have the right to suggest solutions, knowing that they are based on no real information. The owner's architect should be the one to make the final determination, taking all factors, not just the roof, into consideration.

I'm going by his drawing and that's what he's asking about. He also said in his first post that is was a single story hip roof.So for now that's what I've given him suggestion for. I've framed a house exactly like the one he drew and I gave him three examples so far of what he could do. Those three example are based on a shed roof like you drew having a low sloped pitch with a 1/12 - 2/12 or anything less than a roof pitch that requires a shingled roof. This is just for discussion. You keep saying we don't know...we don't know.........of course we don't know.

Let's say we did know and your shed roof would create a 1/12 - 2/12 pitch and he didn't want that because he wants at least a 4/12 pitch with shingles to match the rest of the house. What would you suggest other than what I did? I can come up with a few more, but what would you suggest? Changing a roof line is very common around here and that can also be done, but for now dealing with his roof, what else would you suggest that you can use shingles on?

[Richard A Hetzel]

If he wants a possibly ugly house, nothing. I think that much is obvious. There is a proportion between roof and house which, within a narrow range, is correct, and that means all other proportions are by definition incorrect. If he wants to maintain the appearance of his house, then the suggestion I sketched is the right one. If he wants shingles, even on a roof which few people may ever see, then he accepts the consequences of his request.

When one doubles the height of a roof, or even ibcreases it by fifty percent, one had better look caarefully at the resulting proportions, because one could well be taking a big chunk out of the value of the house. There is an axiom that a house never looks better than the way it was originally designed, and that is one axiom that's well worth keeping in mind when one makes major changes.

[Joe Carola]

There is an axiom that a house never looks better than the way it was originally designed, and that is one axiom that's well worth keeping in mind when one makes major changes.

This is why you have to give client all the options and let him decide which one suits them, and obviously he has many.

[Joe Carola]

If he wants a possibly ugly house, nothing. I think that much is obvious. There is a proportion between roof and house which, within a narrow range, is correct, and that means all other proportions are by definition incorrect. If he wants to maintain the appearance of his house, then the suggestion I sketched is the right one. If he wants shingles, even on a roof which few people may ever see, then he accepts the consequences of his request.
.

So your saying designing a one story house your way with a possible 1/12 - 2/12 pitch roof without shingles isn't ugly? I say that's an ugly house. I don't see to many Architects designing roofs like this around here on a one story house that you WILL see the roof. Flat roofs like this are the last resort and are usually on a two story home where you don't see them. If you told the client your way is the best, they would have to suffer the consequences also.

[Richard A Hetzel]

It's the back of the house, and membrane roofs don't have to be ugly anyway. Yes, if you're thinking of double coverage, it's ugly. And work out the sight lines for a low slope roof from anywhere in the back yard, and see how much of it you would ever see. It's certainly better than doubling the height of the roof as seen from the street, or even increasing the height by half. That you will see, from all angles and all positions. And that could get mighty ugly.

[Joe Carola]

It's the back of the house, and membrane roofs don't have to be ugly anyway. Yes, if you're thinking of double coverage, it's ugly. And work out the sight lines for a low slope roof from anywhere in the back yard, and see how much of it you would ever see. It's certainly better than doubling the height of the roof as seen from the street, or even increasing the height by half. That you will see, from all angles and all positions. And that could get mighty ugly.

If the guy doesn't want to change the roof lines if the roof turns out to a have membrane roof as shown in your drawing because the existing ridge height is to low and he likes the way it looks, it's his choice and will have to live with it and your way is the best solution.

If the HO doesn't want that flat roof, then he has to change the roof lines to do so. Changing roof lines is done all the time and does not make houses look ugly. I frame new roof lines over existing roofs all the time because the HO's don't like the low pitch or they don't like a hip roof and we change them to gables and add dormers......etc. Or, I've changed an existing hip roof into a gable roof adding fly-rafters and reversed gables.

If the way you drew it will produce a pitch where he can put shingles on to match the house, that's even better, but I doubt it by looking at his drawing.

You almost make it sound like changing roof lines as seen from the street is a bad thing when it's not. This is done all the time to change the look of a house if that's what the customer wants. If they don't want to change the roof lines, then you have to do what you have to do. The bottom line is that you have to tell the customer all this and let them make the decision whether or not they want to change the roof lines or live with a flat membrane roof that doesn't match the rest of the roof that it's laying on top of.