Whos job is it anyway?

[talkradiobuilder]

Green Building. Sustainable. Renewable. Smart. And just for giggles, lets throw in disaster education. The talk is all over the place. But did you stop long enough to find out who is creating the buzz?
The time is ripe for the contractor to come out of his cave. We've got to start networking the building industry in the capacity that only builders have. The years of practical application and experience. Otherwise, the green building revolution will pass us by like a stray gun nail. Right now, the journalist, the TV anchorman, the magazine editor, and others who have never picked up a hammer are spreading the good green news. While we go to work and eat our saingweeches. It's time for "construction administration". It's time to network our trades on web sites like this one. It's time to back those who network the trades on live radio (like myself). It's time to connect with disaster response officials to provide the tech that only a seasoned builder knows. It's time to bring construction into the 21st century.
Ken Swanson

[Richard A Hetzel]

Maybe it's because the "green" building movement is in part a crock of chips. A small percentage of it makes sense. The rest of it is in the same league as man-made global warming...more a religion than a science.

[Rich]

I think the "green" movement is a good thing as a whole. But you are correct Richard - most of the programs mean well but many go overboard with little bang for the buck.

[talkradiobuilder]

I ran into a contractor at the office supply. I asked him. Whos job is it anyway? He said....What is green? OK, green is the difference between designing a stacked 4&12 pitched roof, (that will have 4" of insulation at the plate line) versus a 4&12 trussed roof with a 12" standoff and soffit that will maintain a full r-38 at the plate line. I end up talking with this guy for 40 minutes on ideas only one of practical application would know.

[Richard A Hetzel]

The same thing can be done with conventional framing. Did he say whether truss uplift is green or not? Trusses have their place, but a typical house with a center bearing wall may not be the best place for them.

[concretemasonry]

"Green" seems to be more of a short sighted "religious" concept and not founded in facts or the big picture.

If a building is not structurally sound, the value of the materials after a problen they may have value only for reclaiming poor land sites. This is especially true in the tradition of temprary construction concept in the U.S.

All to often, materials seem "green" because they can be recycled, despite the cost and energy in the total manufacturing process are very poor. Consider steel that is mined used a great deal of energy (it is fortunate that the wasteland may be recycled into a lake in 40 to 50 years), transported many miles to a steel mill (using resources and energy), refined using more energy, shipped to a fabricator or manufacturer of structural shapes in a diffferent country, reshipped back and then installed only to create a "thermal short circuit" that is ignored by the pink panther advertising.

Wood can be even worse depending on the source and land use. In some countries, wood is discouraged (even though not commonly accepted for good constuction) since it is better to not use the land for timber unless the production of food is more beneficial to the people and ecology. The U.S. is a backward island in comparison to the rest of the developed world when it comes to building materials and systems. - Look at Europe, Russia, China and India.

At least India has commonly used systems for sewerage that separates gray water from sanitary waste, making a tremendous difference in the use of energy and resources. Obviously, wood is not used unless it is recycled packing crates from the U.S.

China has had a 10 year program to convert the use away from building materials that are contrary to to the sensible use of land and agriculture. The preferred materials do not use the important airible land, large amounts of energy or pollute and work with the climate and needs for housing. Unfortunately, the size of changing major Chinese industries takes time and education even if they do not have the burden of dealing the slow to act "green" people that want more recognition than real action.

I have seen all these situations personally numerous times through the years.

Dick

[talkradiobuilder]

Thanks Dick. The information that people need is the food for thought you just provided. Where is the "product" located. How much energy does it take to produce it. What kinds of VOC's are being puked out into the environment. The marketing costs associated to the "Green" thing. The energy it takes to deliver the "product" to its destination, and other impacts. Count the cost. If it doesent add up, it's not "green". My topic is "who's job.." Is it not the building industry folks who have practical experience in these matters? Who will maintain some accountability for those things deemed "green"? Is 3% be considered "green", or has someone gotten paid off? And how do Americans get this education? The media?

[talkradiobuilder]

We did'nt get into uplift. In CA, the truss company is responsible for any issue above the plateline. Common to uplift is LS-50 diapham transfer, or H-1 on every truss. The green issue here would be the sustainable insulation factor (for our zone) and the fire interphase. New technologies in venting, means that with a soffit, the eve could be insualated to some degree, adding to the energy calcs. The time difference between stacking and trusses, means overall faster building completion. (I know, a couple days, big deal.)

[Richard A Hetzel]

There is also the issue of the fire safety of nail-plate-assempbled trusses. Having a roof collapse on fire fighters is not considered green. Yes, if there is a hear wall, I suppose the trusses could be connected to it to resist uplift, but we in the northeast do not require seismic design. So, I guess the real answer is "it depends". There is a great deal that can be done, and has been done for eons, to make a building "green" without resorting to overpriced materials and questionable claims. That, plus tried-and-true materials and practices get one 90% of the way to as "green" as possible.

Pray tell, how does insulating a soffit add anything "to the energy calcs" Would insulating a porch roof and floor add even more, then??

[concretemasonry]

talkradiobuilder -

You have a very naive, simplistic approach to the problem and seem to think that everything is delivered in pretty little condensed packages with bows on them.

When you say "product", you miss the point that a product is not a single item and has no other components that either add to or subtract from the fictitious "footprint", that is really not defined yet except by children of the 1960's "flower children".

You apparently are looking for fodder for some articles or something to throw out and feed the Gores and the pink panthers that are both very poor examples when all facts are considered.

You are preaching, but have not offered any real input or specific situations, except some unqualified opinions of structural design that are only limited to some areas of the U.S. and not related to the way the majority of the developed world builds or must build to have sustainable construction.

[Don_P]

I believe he was referring to a raised heel truss, a good thing insulationwise. I've also padded rafters to give them more depth as well.

As for wood being temporary construction, 1000 years and still standing;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greensted_Church

The mountains around me had 95% of their timber remaining at the end of the Civil War. By the turn of that century 5% of that forest remained. It had been turned to charcoal for the iron furnaces. I now live in forest again, and a house of wood.

I've been working today with wood that travelled not 1/2 mile from where it grew. The gravel in the driveway has more embodied energy and less sustainability than that. I doubt the answers are "one size fits all".

[talkradiobuilder]

Since we're not writing novels here, only conversation, lets try to add something of our collective knowledge to the forum. Nobody in the construction field is a know it all. Its hard not to try to send someone to the burn center, but keep an open mind and share something of your experience that will add to the flavor for the totally unskilled. This way, we all can give them a reason to do the job right, and use the right process and people.

[talkradiobuilder]

Richard. Theory. An enclosed soffit with eve vent technology would create a draft stop opposed to standard eve vents and allow for encapsulating the top plate at the exterior wall. Especially if the soffit were lower than the top plate. Having the top plate "wrapped" with insulation, plus penetration foam, seems a small investment in time and "product", (for Dick) to gain sustainability. Do you think it would calc for green classification?

[concretemasonry]

How do you "calc" for the religion of "Green"?

the concept is great IF you follow the trail for all products and facts before you begin to calculate. - Al Gore could probably give you the "correct" formula.

Anything that refers to an R-value should be suspect since it is a too easy solution predicated on advertising.

[Richard A Hetzel]

How does "encapsulating" (cough cough) the top plate gain any sustainability whatsoever, and how much, if any? A better term might be wrapped, and I'd like to see that wrapping after about 5 years. There are about a billion easier ways to make more of a difference than wrapping a top plate, and I would advise my clients to do those first. How long will this "green" insanity plague us? If we once-and-for-all prove that "Global Warming" is one of the great hoaxes of all time (and it has already been proven to my satisfaction), will these "green" people go away too?

Consider. There is "global warming" on Pluto, which is moving away from the sun and ought to be cooling. The polar ice caps on Mars have receded. There is "climate change" on Jupiter and Saturn. I wasn't aware that the inhabitants of those orbs used incandescent bulbs and drove SUVs, or flew in private jets. Maybe someone can prove me wrong. Meanwhile, I'm busy designing blue houses.

[talkradiobuilder]

To Hetzel and the concreature: Calc this scenario. Standard home @ 1600' +/- with a hip roof= 300' some odd top plate. 20" of batt insulation with a 3" celotex draft stop capping and "wrapping" the top plate from the soffit side. Dormer type eve vents 3' up into the roof, so the soffit is closed (interphase) X a 400 home subdivision = how much energy savings over 30 years. (opposed to "blue" or my word "neanderthol" practices)
Throw into the equasion equity of re-sale due to lower heating and cooling costs. And energy star rated appliances, Zone control HVAC systems, radient barrier plywood and other new tech, (not to mention what's on the horizon for building) and you cannot deny a large scale savings for those who engage in the PRACTICAL aspects of green building. That's not to say, "lets get whacked out on the green thing". It's my contention that the public needs the building industry to guide them into what will work, and what is nonsence. Or we can all just ignore the issue. But you know as well as I, it aint gonna go away. Concreature. How much ICF have you stacked? And Hetzel. Billions? Let's hear um! You guys are the pro's, and this is your forum.

[Richard A Hetzel]

How much energy savings over 30 years in 400 homes built that way? Less than the energy lost by one improperly-weatherstripped door in ten percent of those homes after 10 years of use in the following 20 years...by FAR.

[talkradiobuilder]

You forgot to add, improperly weatherstripped hollow core door, with no door sweep. In the upper east, I would imagine that most eve's are enclosed. Out here in the west, most eve's are open to the elements. That means that every eve vent with an insulation baffle nailed to the top plate has direct exposure to freezing cold in winter, and blistering heat in summer. Wood having some r-value of .05 means transfer of heat/cold to the interior of the structure. Multiply 3 1/2" X 22 1/2" X every 3rd block in a plate line times tens of thousands of homes that could have an encapsulated top plate (with standard framing) and it's a no brainer for the amount of heat/cold transfer to the atmosphere. Exact numbers not needed, we're talking common sence. This is just one instance of needing to rethink design. Wanna talk another?