Question about stairs

[techinstructor]

When we began building, we hired a general contractor to get the house to "dry in." During the process of negotiating a contract, I asked for itemization rather than just accepting one flat fee. He recluctantly provided a generalized itemized list. "Stairs" were specifically included in my list of things I wanted him to be in charge of doing, but were not singled out on his list; they were included as part of the framing materials and labor. At the time I didn't specifically ask how he would build the stairs but I assumed (never a good idea) that they would be completed, including handrails.

When it was close to the time that he would be building the stairs, I asked what material he planned to use for the treads and risers and was told that he would use the plywood scrapes from the sheathing. I didn't want to argue, but I was a bit shocked by this. He said he could use better material but I would have to pay the additional cost. Not wanting to add any more expense, I agreed to the plywood stairs. When we went to look at the house, he told us that the handrails were not included in the contract but that he had built the stairs so that they could be added.

1599

The more DH and I think about it, the more we are troubled by this development, so today I asked him if this would standard procedure to build temporary (plywood) stairs and then later put in treads. Here is a summary of his response:

Treads (of wooden boards such as oak) are put on as part of the finish work which is not included in his contract
Handrails are also part of the finish work
Temporary stairs are normally put in during the framing phase - in fact he said they never put in finished stairs during framing
Plywood stairs could be left as is for up to 5 years
Plywood stairs can be covered with carpet or boards during finishing or at a later date

I know there are a number of people on the board who work in construction so I would appreciate input as to the validity of this information. In other words, is this standard operating procedure?

Thank you in advance for your input.

[homebild]

"Dry In" means different things to different contractors, but generally speaking, stairs are usually considered a part of the 'framing' and therefore are usually included in with the 'dry-in'. But it could go either way. Many factory produced stairs don't get installed until after the drywall has been finished.

The contractor is right, however, in that high end stairs made out of hardwoods, specialty materials or of ornate design are usually not installed at the 'dry-in' phase or by framing contractors and are left to specialists to install as part of the final 'trim' work. He is also correct about carpeting over the plywood stairs.

The contractor is also correct in that guardrails and handrails are normally part of the 'trim' work and not installed as part of any 'dry in' package.

But let's concentrate on this chap's current set of basement stairs.

From what I can see they may be illegal and may not meet Code minimums for safely constructed stairs. (I'm thinking 2006 International Residential Code so bear with me...)

The issues I think violate the code is that:

1) the projection of the tread (ie. the 'nosing' that overhangs the solid riser below) appears to exceed the Code maximum. Code only allows the overhang to be a maximum of 1 1/4" beyond the riser. It might just be me, but the overhang seems to approach or exceed 1 1/4.

2)Code requires projections of treads to be rounded with a radius of curvature not to exceed 9/16th of an inch and where beveled, the tread nosing should not be beveled in excess of 1/2"

But few in any Code Inspectors (including me) would fail these stairs based on these 2 items alone.

What concerns me the most is:

3) Did he use 3/4" plywood to construct the 'stringers' that support the stairs? It isn't clear how they were framed from the photo.

If he used dimensional lumber and not plywood, then there really isn't anything 'wrong' with what was done....

And your concerns are merely contractual in nature and left to work out between you and the builder.

So far I'm with the builder on this one.

Other information might convince me otherwise.

He's making up stories about a '5 year rule' for 'temporary stairs'.

No such animal. Stairs either meet Code or not, and a Certificate to Occupy the building will not be given without all stairs being constructed to meet Code minimums.

-------------

[Don_P]

If it is a framing job then yes the rough stairs you have are the typical level of finish, if it were a turnkey job where he handed you a fully trimmed out home then the stairs would typically be included. In my framing contract I refer to them as "rough construction stairs" to try to head off this problem. When the trades are dealing with owner builders it is very hard to forsee every expectation they have assumed into the job.

I had one homeowner that stayed kind of mad the entire time I built his house because the lumber company was charging him for 2x6's that were only 5-1/2" wide. Its an extreme example to show that things I wouldn't think twice about are issues we need to communicate very thoroughly to someone who doesn't do this every day. From your end turn that on its head and realize that you need to take the time to go through the scopes of work with your contractors very carefully to avoid misunderstandings.

I usually set up the rough stairs similar to what he did, the plywood stays and the finish goods attach to it, it makes it stronger and easier to use hidden fasteners and more glue.

[Rich]

I would also agree that the dry-in package would include a rough stair. Ready for finish materials. And what I use for the treads depends on what owner wants for a final finish. Steadi-Tred if they want carpet or 3/4" plywood if they are going to do tile or hardwood.

[Richard A Hetzel]

"...because the lumber company was charging him for 2x6's that were only 5-1/2" wide.
Next time, tell the homeowner you ordered 2x5's.

[techinstructor]

The issues I think violate the code is that:

1) the projection of the tread (ie. the 'nosing' that overhangs the solid riser below) appears to exceed the Code maximum. Code only allows the overhang to be a maximum of 1 1/4" beyond the riser. It might just be me, but the overhang seems to approach or exceed 1 1/4.

I think that's distortion in the photo. I don't think they stick out more than an inch if that much.



2)Code requires projections of treads to be rounded with a radius of curvature not to exceed 9/16th of an inch and where beveled, the tread nosing should not be beveled in excess of 1/2"
Obviously there's nothing we can do about this other than cover them.


What concerns me the most is:

3) Did he use 3/4" plywood to construct the 'stringers' that support the stairs? It isn't clear how they were framed from the photo.

If he used dimensional lumber and not plywood, then there really isn't anything 'wrong' with what was done....

He used dimensional lumber.
1600 1601

[Don_P]

I do no nosing and no radius... a rough stair....
I like to put my entire stringer on the platform but I would have only used 3 stringers, nice work.

[homebild]

No 'nosing' and no 'radius' is technically a code violation and some inspectors would not approve it.

Since I've also been a builder for so long...I'm not one of those inspectors....although I could introduce you to a few...:)

[Don_P]

My comments were more to reassure a homeowner than to banter. It is a frame, that would be a pretty short discussion. Heights don't work, rail might be a 2x4, its pretty obvious. None have rejected or even pointed out a rough stair for not complying with section R314's finished stairway code.

In several houses I've built temporary construction stairs that were then removed when a shop built set was delivered and installed. We've got a set of wrought iron and oak winders to work on soon. My temporaries in that owner build have been up for over a year.

What this means to the customer is that the framing and finish of the stair needs to be well understood by those parties in the bid phase. An inspector will not get you a set of finished stairs. When the finished stairs are installed he may check those for compliance.

This contractor may be interested in doing the finish work and he knows the building. I know earlier you were speaking highly of him and if this is the only issue, I think he has been up front.

[homebild]

The problem with the stairs above is that someone is going to be left with the task of making them Code compliant, because at this point, they simply are not.

If the height of the risers and tread depths are not within the tolerances described by the Code...if no guardrails and graspable handrails are installed...

Then these stairs will fail the final inspection, and no Certificate to Occupy the structure will be issued by the Code Official.

Right now there not only remains a question about whether or not they were built correctly, but just WHO is going to finish building (and pay for)them to assure they do.

While generally speaking they look 'ok'...they do not even adequately qualify as 'temporary stairs' because they remain unfinished, pose a life safety threat, and are therefore a concern and liability for the owner.

[WarChief]

Being a finish carpenter, usually the stairs are left for me to contend with and are included in my price for trim work. Looking at the pic's I can't say if the stairs would comply with riser ht requirements or not. Usually when I go in to finish stairs, the framer has installed temp treads that have to be replaced. HOPEFULLY when the stringers are cut they have been cut to comply with a "finished" tread. Finished treads are usually either and oak, poplar or a pressed wood material usually 1 inch in thickness.

Not knowing what state you are in, the nosing doesn't have to be rounded in some states. Ky may be a bit backward in this concept, but most of the time basement stairs usually have a 2x10 to 2x12 tread and are considered "finished" in some cases.

Open stairs as in your pictures however require a guardrail consisting of a 2x4 handrail and supports approx 4' centers to meet OSHA standards until finished state.

[Richard A Hetzel]

They look pretty darn nice to me, for basement stairs. They just need to be finished with the items homebild mentions.

[techinstructor]

Thank you for your comments. The stairs do meet my state's (NC) requirement for riser height and depth. I've never seen any mention of "rounded" nosing in the code so I don't think that will be an issue. Actually, he built the rough stairs in a manner that should pass final inspection (as long as we add the handrails according to code specs). We can choose to leave them as is for now or cover them with carpet. Then at a later date we can trade them out for oak if we choose. We may add batten strips underneath for additional support to prevent squeaks.

My framer is also my general contractor and I do think highly of him. I've also talked with him further about the stair issue... it was just a contractual misunderstanding since he assumed that I knew the difference between rough vs. finished stairs. My husband and I are doing much of the finish work ourselves so this is not a turnkey job. The GC has been very willing to work with us on who is doing what parts of the job. I know some contractors are reluctant to do this so I've been happy to find someone who was. The information here has verified all the information that he told me so I don't have a problem with the work he has done.

Thank you again for the information.

[Don_P]

Thank you for the "rest of the story". I'm glad the misunderstanding was resolved to everyone's satisfaction.

[homebild]

"it was just a contractual misunderstanding "

Yup.

Glad that was all it was, too...
And much as we (all-collectivley) had figured it to be...

Luck