Problem building deck that is low to cement patio ground

[deckproblem]

I've been working for a deck constractor for a year and have learned a lot about constructing them, but I'm having trouble building one in my own backyard :(
The only reason for this is because my backyard has a cement patio (in about 4 unlevel sections) and a sliding glass door that's only 3 inches above the patio. With the deck contractor, framing was easy. The backyard doors on every house were always at least four feet above the groud, so we would connect our header under the door (there was always wood under the door that we could bolt the header to) and just run joists off of it. Just from my picture I've uploaded, you should be able to visualize and input on my situation, but I'll go into detail here please look at the picture to get an idea of what I trying to do.

Ok, so, my deck (or wooden patio if you will) is only going to be three or four inches off of the cement ground because that's how low my sliding glass door is. I obviously can't build this like I build decks at work (with a header under the door that has joists off of it), so I'm thinking about just lying 2x3s on their sides (so when decking is on top of them, the height will be about right under the sliding glass door). I've seen this no-header, no-joist ,just-lye-wood-on-the-floor-and-put-decking-on-top-of-it-approach before on television, but I still want some of your input on this before I go ahead and do it. Making all of these 2x3s level will be rather difficult because the patio isn't level; in some places, it gets higher as it moves away from the house :( This will be a problem ,because, then I have to break away some of the cement patio so that the beam is no longer elevated to an unlevel place that will make the final product higher than the sliding glass door. For securing these 2x3s and the whole deck for that matter to the cement patio, I'm thinking about pouring some concrete next to some of them, and in places where the 2x3 need to be elevated to meet level, I will shim them and also put concrete under them so it holds better. The deck is going to extend off of the cement patio both on the sides and front, so in those places, I'm thinking about digging holes to put very small posts into and adding a small (2x4) header to meet level.

Here are some more questions:
-How far apart should I make my "joists"? 16"?
-How far apart should I make my posts that support the front "header"? the frame will be about 14 feet long and 26 feet wide.

-Do those special deck screws that have a cup under their head to enclose the rejected decking material when the decking is screwed onto the joists come in a size as small as I'll need (about a 3" screw)?
-Should I worry about rain water collecting near the house? should I pull the whole deck out a half inch from the house? -I'm thinking no, but not sure about it.

In the picture with the red line and yellow circles, the red line represents a header that will be so low it might have to be inderground and the yellow circles represnt posts to support and level the frame- are the yellow circles in pheasable positioning?

Eh, you have to copy and paste these picture links.

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-7/767369/patio.JPG

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-7/767369/pato.JPG

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-7/767369/patogyj.JPG




Looking foward to some input
Thank You :D

[deckproblem]

I missed showing the need for the 2 posts, which are colored black in the following pic.

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-7/767369/patoghfggyj.JPG
Thanks again

[doyle]

I had the same problem last year on a project I did for a customer in Mississippi. I just went and rented a jackhammer, busted up all the concrete and removed it. I then had a nice bed of gravel and concrete rubble to build the new decking on. Problem solved...lol

[Tom R]

To me a deck is an outdoor extension of your indoor living space, rather than the inconvenience of several steps or more 'down' to a patio. You don't have this inconvenience, - pour a new patio. Longer lasting and more bang for your buck! Then if you're still set on a deck, build one 'separate' from the house, any elevation you want.

P.S. Building a deck that close to your 'backsloping' patio is an invitation to 'water' and 'vermin'.

[deckproblem]

We were deciding between pavers and a deck, firsts chose pavers, then switched to a deck. I'll probobly get dimension requirements online and build it about how I planned it.

Is there any way I could make the posts that will hold the front header double as handrail posts? Maybe put the handrail posts in the concrete footings and put 2X4 teeko hangers on the bottom of them to run a header(s)?

Thank you

[mfinley919]

There are many wrong ways to do what you are trying to do and only one right way. Break up the patio and remove it, then build a proper deck that will pass codes and be safe. The amount of time and wasted effort you are going to spend trying to work around this existing patio is going to far exceed the effort expended to get rid of it and be able to work normally thereafter.

[deckproblem]

I know it would be more ideal to just put down pavers, but, now, I just want to build this thing for fun.

Getting the thing built and level doesn't pose that much of a problem; I have a few ideas that will allow me to build a level deck that's only 4" high, but the designs have the joists lying on the cement patio, which will trap alot of water and cause mosquito problems.



I guess that the reason people told me in the other topic to get rid of the cement patio and then build is because rain water will then be able to soak into the ground, right? But, my patio is 24'X12' and like 4" thick, which means dumpster and jackhammer rentals and a big pain to get rid of that I'm trying to do without.

I'm hoping to somehow suspend the deck support over the patio at least and inch to not trap rain. I know the rain will still collect because it won't have any sun on it after a deck is put on top of it, but I don't think it will cause too much of a problem.

If you looked at my pictures from the other post, you can see that I've only 4" to build a deck. I'm going to have the decking level with the bottom of the sliding glass door and overlapping 1" of the wooden (it's actually like a ceramic material) panels on the outside of my home.

I came up with the idea show in the following picture: http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-7/767369/34.JPG

I might run a chalk line level to the bottom of the door, which leaves an inch on top if it for the decking. With the only 3" under the chalk line, I'm thinking about leveling to the chalkline 2x3s on their sides so that they take up only 2 inches, leveling them longways, shim them at level, then make tiny concret forms every 2' or so that will hold the joists level.
The rain can run under the joists in the gaps between the concrete forms.

The only problem I can think of encountering by doing this method is that there will be a spot where the patio is less that 4" from the chalk line. What should I do then.

Can anyone think of a better way to do this?
Also, does anyone know of any other deck, construction info and help forums?

Here are some more pictures for the hell of it:
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-7/767369/ugih.JPG
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-7/767369/Deck77lg4.jpg

[mjpliv]

Have you considered drilling about 20-30 one inch drain holes though the slab to keep the bulk of the water off the surface?

Another option is to screed a level layer of 1" crusher run stone over the entire area, lay 2x4 wolmanized sleepers on their flat side at 16" OC. Fill in between the sleepers with more 1" crusher run stone and run a vibrating plate compactor over the whole thing to "lock" the sleepers in place. Nail/screw your decking directly to the sleepers.

No beams and no fuss.

[deckproblem]

mjpliv, that's not a bad idea.
I don't know how secure they sleepers would be, though. Perhaps I could stagger wood in between them to lock it up. Wouldn't rain collect in the stones, though? Besides insects, what would happen if water was to get trapped under the deck?

thank you

[mjpliv]

Drill a few drain holes through the concrete. A couple of hours with a 1" or 1-1/2" concrete drill should do the trick. Don't worry about the sleepers moving around, after vibrating they are quite stable (tack a few boards across the sleepers to temporarily hold your spacing while vibrating). Once the decking is attached they won't budge. Using a crusher run grade of stone with lots of fines in it (add some sand if you want) will displace the water. What little water is absorbed will evaporate fast enough.

[deckproblem]

Thanks a lot for the help, man.

I like your idea. Mine would have worked, but it's a bit, um, anal.
With my plan with the joists suspending over the patio by concrete stubs, it'd be a pain to fix if a joist(s) needs to be repositioned in the future, as my patio shows cracks and elevation among its 4 seperate sections.
The 4 patio sections met eachother by a 2x3s lying between them. I took those 2x3s out and there are trenches which will help water drain. With your idea, the crusher run stone could be added or removed if the deck begins to drastically unlevel in the future.

Thanks again

[mjpliv]

I have used this a method a few times with success. You can actually use it to create a wolmanized deck surface flush with the surrounding grass which is kind of cool. I also use this detail for basement root cellars instead of pouring concrete in that section. The only difference is placing some landscaping fabric under the crusher run.

[deckproblem]

Well, we switched back to pavers and I finished them. I want to add a nice little stand-alone cedar deck(about 10 feet wide and 6 feet deep and 2 steps high) on the side of my patio to hold the BBQ-I'm having problems building it because I want it to have the front corners as 45 degree. Once again, I have pictures to describe:

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-7/791880/deckk.JPG

I want to make the 4X4s that hold the deck frame on the inside of the frame and flush with the top of the joists. Should I use lag bolts (screwed far into the 4X4 to make a flush surface on the side of the outside joists that will allow decking to cover those joists' sides [should I just counter sink the hole?]) to attach the outside joists to the 4X4s instead of nails like the picture shows? I might make the 4X4 posts double as handrails. I feel the posts should be connected the the inside of the frame instead of to a 2x6 or 2x10 under it, because it's a light free-standing deck and this will make it more secure. Having the 4x4s on the inside will also make it easy to cover the bottom (example pic: http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-7/791880/deck-15.jpg). I plan to attach 2x4s that are plum to the outside joists on the bottom of the 4x4 posts to get a good top and bottom connection for the decking to cover the bottom.

The frame graphic I posted only shows two 4x4 posts on one side of the frame because I'm not sure how to attack the rest of them. To avoid soing something like this: http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-7/791880/deckkHGJH.JPG , how should I place the other 4x4 posts?

I thought of this idea that will give good support for the BBQ, but I'm not sure if the outside joists should connect to the 4X4s like it. graphic: http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-7/791880/deck2.JPG If I did this, then I would end up with this, which I don't think is acceptable. Or is it? graphic:http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-7/791880/untitledYUTYU.JPG
I'll use the metal plates on the 4X4s.

I'm looking for the correct way to build this thing. I also want instructions on how to build 2 or 3 steps like http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-7/791880/deck-15.jpg except that I don't want the V shape in the actual steps, just a tapered set. What is that angle used for the tapered steps, 45? should I just attach 45 degree teekos to the frame and put the 2 outside stringers in them? Also, there's a tree trunk in the way of 2 or 3 of the decking boards that will cover the bottom. Should I just cut those boards on a curve with a saws-all?

Thank you

[deckproblem]

I got a good idea now, but would still would like to hear some of yours. I'm in no rush at all to build this. I want it to be anally perfect, chalk lines for screws and all :P
Take Care